[mei-neumes-ig] Style name

Tue Jun 21 21:59:15 CEST 2016

Hello!

There are lots of categories for neume families (of course everybody  
knows). I just bring it back to mind:
a staffless or on staffs / adiastematic or diastematic
b and the notation on lines can be devided into nail notation or  
square notation and others
c families sorted by location (Beneventan notation, neumes from St. Gall...)
d families sorted by systematic - Punktnotation (like e. g. Aquitanian  
notation) and Akzentnotation (German neume notation, e. g. St. Gall  
notation in neumes), both can be diastematic/on lines or  
adiastematic/without lines
e handwritten (Flexibel in the vertical/horizontal ductus) or printed  
(steretyped)
f more round, more angled
g sorted in chronological order

I use most of the time c, d and g. :)

Does that help in the diskussion?

Herzlich! :)
Inga

Zitat von "Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h)" <pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu>:

> The <classification> elements exists to avoid integrating thesauri /  
> ontologies into MEI.  With this approach, there can be any number of  
> external classification schemes.  MEI only needs to provide a  
> mechanism by which elements of the markup, like <neume> can be  
> associated with a term.
>
> --
> p.
>
> __________________________
> Perry Roland
> Music Library
> University of Virginia
> P. O. Box 400175
> Charlottesville, VA 22904
> 434-982-2702 (w)
> pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu
> ________________________________
> From: mei-neumes-ig [mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de]  
> on behalf of Kate Helsen [katehelsen at gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 12:43 PM
> To: Debra Lacoste; Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative
> Subject: Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name
>
> Would this help?
> http://individual.utoronto.ca/notaquadrata/lexicon.html<redir.aspx?REF=qZsLAgnBv2bRNi_1nzdkidQJKcm5FZnVp_N1ZGMp9msvJtVN_ZnTCAFodHRwOi8vaW5kaXZpZHVhbC51dG9yb250by5jYS9ub3RhcXVhZHJhdGEvbGV4aWNvbi5odG1s>
>
> I can get in touch with John Haines about copyright of this, and  
> perhaps he'd be happy to see it integrated into MEI terminology.  
> (This was part of my post-doc life in Toronto, five years ago.)
>
> Cheers,
> Kate
>
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Debra Lacoste  
> <dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca<redir.aspx?REF=X5p0B7WncLyVTroyLLuotVLmiyaaDWGtnLuhzpoP91svJtVN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86ZGxhY29zdGVAdXdhdGVybG9vLmNh>>  
> wrote:
> Thanks for your message, Andrew.
> I was thinking more along the lines of the broad families, actually.
>
> It's the names that are problematic in my opinion, so I was thinking  
> that instead of using solely the established names (i.e. "French",  
> "St. Gall", "Messine", etc.), we could ALSO have a name that  
> describes the look of the neumes.  (My use of "scribal" wasn't  
> intended to point to small and/or unique characteristics of a  
> particular hand or style.  Instead, I was leaning towards a new way  
> to name notational styles that is based on "look" instead of  
> location.)
>
> I have attached some examples of notations from all over Europe.   
> They could be described in these ways: "slanted ductus, narrow nib"  
> (or "slanted narrow"), "vertical ductus, narrow nib," "small  
> square," etc. (we would have to make up the names).
> I see similarities in the first 4 examples, especially as compared  
> to the other 3. Yet, they are all named in the literature as  
> distinct notational styles.
>
> I was thinking that since we are still in the early stages here, we  
> could have a place-holder for a different way to name the notational  
> styles. It may or may not be adopted by researchers, but I think it  
> *could* simplify the discussion surrounding neumes and possibly  
> reduce the number of different types that are currently being  
> distinguished.
>
> Just a thought!
> Debra
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Debra Lacoste, Ph.D.
>
> | Cantus Database |  
> http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca<redir.aspx?REF=mB_3D8-3ZnWiUF8bEhD0lTRPkIo24Mo1nLbxgTCimVovJtVN_ZnTCAFodHRwOi8vY2FudHVzLnV3YXRlcmxvby5jYQ..>  
> ||
> | also  
> https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus<redir.aspx?REF=c2HPlBvjryOT5deUhNwk4df3g7hbhNuSCjdf8c8dvNgvJtVN_ZnTCAFodHRwczovL3V3YXRlcmxvby5jYS9tYXJnb3QvbWFyZ290LXByb2plY3RzL2NhbnR1cw..>  
> ||
> | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor ||
>
> |  
> dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca<redir.aspx?REF=X5p0B7WncLyVTroyLLuotVLmiyaaDWGtnLuhzpoP91svJtVN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86ZGxhY29zdGVAdXdhdGVybG9vLmNh>  
> |
> |  
> debra.lacoste at gmail.com<redir.aspx?REF=eHIJ6POcRe5fNzw5TrhGOqtzbUknq_t8eXlmfhfUT1EvJtVN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86ZGVicmEubGFjb3N0ZUBnbWFpbC5jb20.>  
> |
>
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Hankinson  
> <andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca<redir.aspx?REF=Uc2GGjFVeppvLU9mNAC0V2qre93XQhsz7DiX5HlGVucvJtVN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86YW5kcmV3LmhhbmtpbnNvbkBtYWlsLm1jZ2lsbC5jYQ..>>  
> wrote:
>
> These are separate issues, I think. What Perry said in his previous  
> e-mail is that, if we can come up with a list of style identifiers  
> for neumes that we can categorize them into broad families. This is  
> to help with, for example, a potential renderer, so that we can  
> display neumes in st. gallen style, or in square style.
>
> Scribal features are best kept to a different set of tags in MEI --  
> the 'hand' element:
>
> http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/hand/<redir.aspx?REF=cuBzwam5eJCoOH_Z-Q5KwtI8VhckzdpAc9WsNNz9-AQvJtVN_ZnTCAFodHRwOi8vbXVzaWMtZW5jb2Rpbmcub3JnL2RvY3VtZW50YXRpb24vMy4wLjAvaGFuZC8.>
>
> Capturing particular graphical features ("this scribe always puts a  
> little jiggly thing at the end of their virga") would be much harder  
> to describe systematically (that is, in an XML encoding hierarchy),  
> and would arguably be better left to a graphical display standard,  
> like SVG.
>
> But it depends on why you want to encode these things. Do you want  
> to display the rendering exactly like the original page image? If  
> so, why not just show the original image? Do you want to find the  
> place where a particular scribe appears? Use the  
> hand/handShift/handList elements.
>
> If you want to find a particular graphical correspondence between  
> different MSS images, the notation encoding process is probably not  
> the right place for this. That would probably be better left to a  
> (theoretical) image comparison system directly, since it will be  
> much more precise without also needing the work of somehow  
> systematically capturing all the nuances of a particular scribe.
>
> On Jun 21, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Debra Lacoste  
> <dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca<redir.aspx?REF=X5p0B7WncLyVTroyLLuotVLmiyaaDWGtnLuhzpoP91svJtVN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86ZGxhY29zdGVAdXdhdGVybG9vLmNh>>  
> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
> It's been interesting to follow these discussions.
> I don't want to muddy the waters here, but I wonder if we can assign  
> two <styleName> elements? (if this element is the one that will  
> describe the neumes at the level of the notational type, like "St  
> Gall" or "French")
>
> We might want to (at some point) identify notational forms according  
> to their graphical/scribal features (instead of or in addition to  
> the more traditional geographical distinctions), or perhaps you're  
> already planning this and I just haven't kept up. (If so, my  
> apologies!)
>
> For example, "St Gall" neumes in the early books look a lot like  
> "Messine" or "Laon" neumes (the latter lack the significative  
> letters, but the ductus, size of the pen-nib, "swirliness" and other  
> features are quite similar). Those same neumes show up in so-called  
> "Klosterneuburg" notation in the 12th century, but by the 14th  
> century the "Klosterneuburg" neumes are more "Gothic" in style,  
> related perhaps to other "German" neumes.
>
> In my experience, palaeographic research in the 20th century  
> generally separated neume styles according to their geographic  
> origin (accompanied by geographic names, like "French",  
> "Klosterneuburg", "Laon," etc.), but the computer will be able to  
> spot identical shapes in books from a wide range of places in  
> Europe.  It could be that there is sometimes more of a connection  
> between scribal styles of a particular *time* than of particular  
> places. There is no doubt that some notations are specific to a  
> particular place (Benevento, for example), but the notational style  
> could still be assigned to a category of what the neumes look like  
> (which would revolutionize the nomenclature of palaeography! ... No,  
> I'm not sure I want to tackle that, but when all the individual  
> neume-shapes are itemized and classified, I'm sure there will be  
> duplicates in other notations and someone will take it on one day).
>
> If the <styleName> element isn't the right place for a new name to  
> denote a category of shapes that look similar, is there another tag  
> where this could be entered?
>
> To be clear, this "scribal" identification I am suggesting is at the  
> level of the notational style overall ... comparable to how we say  
> "square neumes," "Gothic neumes", "German neumes", "Italian neumes",  
> etc. but not tied to a geographical location. (For instance, "square  
> neumes" is already perfect!  It describes what it looks like, and  
> the Franciscan mss from Italy show the same types of neumes and  
> graphical features as mss from France with that notational style.)   
> I can see such a description being applied at the level of the  
> individual neume within any set of neumes from any place, and then  
> connections across previously distinct notational styles will become  
> more obvious.
>
> (and with enough samples the computer could determine whether or not  
> the shape is similar enough and IT can uncover the connections  
> between "Messine", "Klosterneuburg, "south-German" and "St Gall"  
> neumes!)
>
> Sorry to be so long in describing this.  It seems like the right  
> time to consider the larger question of notational styles and how we  
> perceive them, esp. since we are looking forward to branching out  
> and working with manuscripts from France (Paris lat 12044 and 15181  
> -- with very different notations!) and perhaps some from Austria.
>
> Debra
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Debra Lacoste, Ph.D.
>
> | Cantus Database |  
> http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca<redir.aspx?REF=65rqLvsBtv-ueHObjnS2cUd5MULueDrxUyXm8yTZWkMvJtVN_ZnTCAFodHRwOi8vY2FudHVzLnV3YXRlcmxvby5jYS8.>  
> ||
> | also  
> https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus<redir.aspx?REF=c2HPlBvjryOT5deUhNwk4df3g7hbhNuSCjdf8c8dvNgvJtVN_ZnTCAFodHRwczovL3V3YXRlcmxvby5jYS9tYXJnb3QvbWFyZ290LXByb2plY3RzL2NhbnR1cw..>  
> ||
> | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor ||
>
> |  
> dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca<redir.aspx?REF=X5p0B7WncLyVTroyLLuotVLmiyaaDWGtnLuhzpoP91svJtVN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86ZGxhY29zdGVAdXdhdGVybG9vLmNh>  
> |
> |  
> debra.lacoste at gmail.com<redir.aspx?REF=eHIJ6POcRe5fNzw5TrhGOqtzbUknq_t8eXlmfhfUT1EvJtVN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86ZGVicmEubGFjb3N0ZUBnbWFpbC5jb20.>  
> |
>
> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h)  
> <pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu<redir.aspx?REF=6RxWcZTXHcwuZATMzZGzEzFQO-Oax4bW7BE5W3BvWLsvJtVN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86cGRyNGhAZXNlcnZpY2VzLnZpcmdpbmlhLmVkdQ..>>  
> wrote:
>
> Hi Andrew,
>
> The <styleName> element has been present since the earliest versions  
> of MEI, although v. 2010-05 is when it got a camel-cased name.  It  
> can occur anywhere transcribed text is allowed.  It's intended to be  
> used to mark a stylistic term in para-text and metadata.   
> <styleName> is not a metadata "field" / container itself and  
> therefore doesn't occur directly within the header, say in  
> <encodingDesc>, because allowing it there would place it in  
> competition with <classification>.
>
> However, 3.0.0 does provide a pair of new attributes on <staffDef>  
> that can be used to describe the notation on each staff.  The  
> @notationtype may take the values "cmn", "mensural",  
> "mensural.black", "mensural.white", "neume", and "tab", while  
> @notationsubtype may take any textual value.  If a 3-tiered  
> classification is necessary for neume notation (like that provided  
> for via the "mensural.black" and "mensural.white" values plus  
> subtype) we can extend the value set for @notationtype.
>
> --
> p.
>
> __________________________
> Perry Roland
> Music Library
> University of Virginia
> P. O. Box 400175
> Charlottesville, VA 22904
> 434-982-2702<tel:434-982-2702> (w)
> pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu
> ________________________________________
> From: mei-neumes-ig  
> [mei-neumes-ig-bounces+pdr4h=eservices.virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de<redir.aspx?REF=R-X4AjrHVA4q9zNHA-WU_bXUU02_DkiyRpR86Dww4z2Qh9dN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86ZXNlcnZpY2VzLnZpcmdpbmlhLmVkdUBsaXN0cy51bmktcGFkZXJib3JuLmRl>] on behalf of Andrew Hankinson  
> [andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca<redir.aspx?REF=7IdcY6hzgo9eqoPBm93bdJNzuHOygP4e40xFNrPsPsOQh9dN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86YW5kcmV3LmhhbmtpbnNvbkBtYWlsLm1jZ2lsbC5jYQ..>]
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 1:31 PM
> To:  
> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de<redir.aspx?REF=3T2DbdwgDmAHxp9ipocsk3NhViRUUzBBg_Hbeu9zChuQh9dN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86bWVpLW5ldW1lcy1pZ0BsaXN0cy51bmktcGFkZXJib3JuLmRl>
> Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name
>
> Hi all (but esp. Perry):
>
> I was just perusing the new 3.0.0 guidelines, and noticed a new  
> element: "<styleName>".
>
> The documentation for it says "A label for a characteristic style of  
> writing or performance, such as 'bebop' or 'rock-n-roll'." Is one  
> possible use of this as an identifier of notation-specific writing  
> styles like "st. gall" or "square neumes"?
>
> I just wanted to check because I seem to remember Perry and I having  
> long arguments over how to best capture this, and am surprised to  
> see it there now. :)
>
> -Andrew
>
>
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