[mei-neumes-ig] Style name

Tue Jun 21 18:42:49 CEST 2016

Would this help?
http://individual.utoronto.ca/notaquadrata/lexicon.html

I can get in touch with John Haines about copyright of this, and perhaps
he'd be happy to see it integrated into MEI terminology. (This was part of
my post-doc life in Toronto, five years ago.)

Cheers,
Kate

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Debra Lacoste <dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca>
wrote:

> Thanks for your message, Andrew.
> I was thinking more along the lines of the broad families, actually.
>
> It's the names that are problematic in my opinion, so I was thinking that
> instead of using solely the established names (i.e. "French", "St. Gall",
> "Messine", etc.), we could ALSO have a name that describes the look of the
> neumes.  (My use of "scribal" wasn't intended to point to small and/or
> unique characteristics of a particular hand or style.  Instead, I was
> leaning towards a new way to name notational styles that is based on "look"
> instead of location.)
>
> I have attached some examples of notations from all over Europe.  They
> could be described in these ways: "slanted ductus, narrow nib" (or "slanted
> narrow"), "vertical ductus, narrow nib," "small square," etc. (we would
> have to make up the names).
> I see similarities in the first 4 examples, especially as compared to the
> other 3. Yet, they are all named in the literature as distinct notational
> styles.
>
> I was thinking that since we are still in the early stages here, we could
> have a place-holder for a different way to name the notational styles. It
> may or may not be adopted by researchers, but I think it *could* simplify
> the discussion surrounding neumes and possibly reduce the number of
> different types that are currently being distinguished.
>
> Just a thought!
> Debra
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Debra Lacoste, Ph.D.
>
> | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca ||
> | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus ||
> | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor ||
>
> | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca |
> | debra.lacoste at gmail.com |
>
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Hankinson <
> andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca> wrote:
>
>>
>> These are separate issues, I think. What Perry said in his previous
>> e-mail is that, if we can come up with a list of style identifiers for
>> neumes that we can categorize them into broad families. This is to help
>> with, for example, a potential renderer, so that we can display neumes in
>> st. gallen style, or in square style.
>>
>> Scribal features are best kept to a different set of tags in MEI -- the
>> 'hand' element:
>>
>> http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/hand/
>>
>> Capturing particular graphical features ("this scribe always puts a
>> little jiggly thing at the end of their virga") would be much harder to
>> describe systematically (that is, in an XML encoding hierarchy), and would
>> arguably be better left to a graphical display standard, like SVG.
>>
>> But it depends on why you want to encode these things. Do you want to
>> display the rendering exactly like the original page image? If so, why not
>> just show the original image? Do you want to find the place where a
>> particular scribe appears? Use the hand/handShift/handList elements.
>>
>> If you want to find a particular graphical correspondence between
>> different MSS images, the notation encoding process is probably not the
>> right place for this. That would probably be better left to a (theoretical)
>> image comparison system directly, since it will be much more precise
>> without also needing the work of somehow systematically capturing all the
>> nuances of a particular scribe.
>>
>> On Jun 21, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Debra Lacoste <dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>> It's been interesting to follow these discussions.
>> I don't want to muddy the waters here, but I wonder if we can assign two
>> <styleName> elements? (if this element is the one that will describe the
>> neumes at the level of the notational type, like "St Gall" or "French")
>>
>> We might want to (at some point) identify notational forms according to
>> their graphical/scribal features (instead of or in addition to the more
>> traditional geographical distinctions), or perhaps you're already planning
>> this and I just haven't kept up. (If so, my apologies!)
>>
>>
>> For example, "St Gall" neumes in the early books look a lot like
>> "Messine" or "Laon" neumes (the latter lack the significative letters, but
>> the ductus, size of the pen-nib, "swirliness" and other features are quite
>> similar). Those same neumes show up in so-called "Klosterneuburg" notation
>> in the 12th century, but by the 14th century the "Klosterneuburg" neumes
>> are more "Gothic" in style, related perhaps to other "German" neumes.
>>
>>
>> In my experience, palaeographic research in the 20th century generally
>> separated neume styles according to their geographic origin (accompanied by
>> geographic names, like "French", "Klosterneuburg", "Laon," etc.), but the
>> computer will be able to spot identical shapes in books from a wide range
>> of places in Europe.  It could be that there is sometimes more of a
>> connection between scribal styles of a particular *time* than of particular
>> places. There is no doubt that some notations are specific to a particular
>> place (Benevento, for example), but the notational style could still be
>> assigned to a category of what the neumes look like (which would
>> revolutionize the nomenclature of palaeography! ... No, I'm not sure I want
>> to tackle that, but when all the individual neume-shapes are itemized and
>> classified, I'm sure there will be duplicates in other notations and
>> someone will take it on one day).
>>
>>
>> If the <styleName> element isn't the right place for a new name to denote
>> a category of shapes that look similar, is there another tag where this
>> could be entered?
>>
>> To be clear, this "scribal" identification I am suggesting is at the
>> level of the notational style overall ... comparable to how we say "square
>> neumes," "Gothic neumes", "German neumes", "Italian neumes", etc. but not
>> tied to a geographical location. (For instance, "square neumes" is already
>> perfect!  It describes what it looks like, and the Franciscan mss from
>> Italy show the same types of neumes and graphical features as mss from
>> France with that notational style.)  I can see such a description being
>> applied at the level of the individual neume within any set of neumes from
>> any place, and then connections across previously distinct notational
>> styles will become more obvious.
>>
>> (and with enough samples the computer could determine whether or not the
>> shape is similar enough and IT can uncover the connections between
>> "Messine", "Klosterneuburg, "south-German" and "St Gall" neumes!)
>>
>> Sorry to be so long in describing this.  It seems like the right time to
>> consider the larger question of notational styles and how we perceive them,
>> esp. since we are looking forward to branching out and working with
>> manuscripts from France (Paris lat 12044 and 15181 -- with very different
>> notations!) and perhaps some from Austria.
>>
>> Debra
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Debra Lacoste, Ph.D.
>>
>> | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca ||
>> | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus ||
>> | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor ||
>>
>> | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca |
>> | debra.lacoste at gmail.com |
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) <
>> pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi Andrew,
>>>
>>> The <styleName> element has been present since the earliest versions of
>>> MEI, although v. 2010-05 is when it got a camel-cased name.  It can occur
>>> anywhere transcribed text is allowed.  It's intended to be used to mark a
>>> stylistic term in para-text and metadata.  <styleName> is not a metadata
>>> "field" / container itself and therefore doesn't occur directly within the
>>> header, say in <encodingDesc>, because allowing it there would place it in
>>> competition with <classification>.
>>>
>>> However, 3.0.0 does provide a pair of new attributes on <staffDef> that
>>> can be used to describe the notation on each staff.  The @notationtype may
>>> take the values "cmn", "mensural", "mensural.black", "mensural.white",
>>> "neume", and "tab", while @notationsubtype may take any textual value.  If
>>> a 3-tiered classification is necessary for neume notation (like that
>>> provided for via the "mensural.black" and "mensural.white" values plus
>>> subtype) we can extend the value set for @notationtype.
>>>
>>> --
>>> p.
>>>
>>> __________________________
>>> Perry Roland
>>> Music Library
>>> University of Virginia
>>> P. O. Box 400175
>>> Charlottesville, VA 22904
>>> 434-982-2702 (w)
>>> pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: mei-neumes-ig [mei-neumes-ig-bounces+pdr4h=
>>> eservices.virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de] on behalf of Andrew
>>> Hankinson [andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca]
>>> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 1:31 PM
>>> To: mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
>>> Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name
>>>
>>> Hi all (but esp. Perry):
>>>
>>> I was just perusing the new 3.0.0 guidelines, and noticed a new element:
>>> "<styleName>".
>>>
>>> The documentation for it says "A label for a characteristic style of
>>> writing or performance, such as 'bebop' or 'rock-n-roll'." Is one possible
>>> use of this as an identifier of notation-specific writing styles like "st.
>>> gall" or "square neumes"?
>>>
>>> I just wanted to check because I seem to remember Perry and I having
>>> long arguments over how to best capture this, and am surprised to see it
>>> there now. :)
>>>
>>> -Andrew
>>>
>>>
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>>
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>
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