[mei-neumes-ig] Question #2

[Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h)]

Thanks for the clarification.

The structure I recommended will permit the inclusion/exclusion of 'pes' as you describe, but how/when that's done is a function of the search software, not the representation.  As a demonstration, the XPath statement,

mei:neume[@name='pes' and ancestor::mei:neume]

selects neumes named 'pes' that are part of a larger structure, while

mei:neume[@name='pes' and not(ancestor::mei:neume)]

selects ones that are "independent".  In a similar vein,

mei:neume[@name='pessubipunctis']

matches all neumes named 'pes subipunctis'.

If neumes aren't named, then one can only rely on melodic contour.  Using this approach, one could never search for either 'pes' or 'pes subipunctis', only for a particular contour (in either absolute or relative terms), in which case any set of elements representing the sought after contour should be returned, unless additional filtering is applied.  A filter could, for example, exclude "hits" that don't match the structure of a pes subipunctis; that is, a neume consisting of a two-note neume followed by two single-note neumes.

Searching for a single-pitch event in an interface designed for contour searching would be counter intuitive, wouldn't it?

--
p.



From: mei-neumes-ig [mailto:mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] On Behalf Of Kate Helsen
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 11:45 AM
To: Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative
Subject: Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2

If the components are part of a compound neume that is considered as "one thing", then I don't want to have the components appear when a search is performed for a neume on its own, not in the compound.

For example, if I search for the sign 'pes', I would like to see only those signs which are considered 'pes' without being part of a compound neume. But I would also like to search for 'pes subipunctis', in which the 'pes' is a part. I might even like to search for only pes signs that are part of the larger 'pes subipunctis.'

Hope that's clearer.
K

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) <pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu<mailto:pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu>> wrote:

Sorry, but I don't understand.  You do or don't want to consider the component parts as neumes?

--
p.


From: mei-neumes-ig [mailto:mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de>] On Behalf Of Kate Helsen
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 11:26 AM

To: Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative
Subject: Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2

Does expressing these components as containment mean that they will not be considered neumes in their own right? I'm hoping for a method of expression that means that the puncti and the pes contained in a pes subipuntis won't turn up in a search for all puncti (on their own) in the manuscript.

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) <pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu<mailto:pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu>> wrote:

XML provides 2 basic approaches to describing relationships -- order and containment.  Containment is often more intuitive for part/partOf relationships and uses nested elements, e.g.,

<car>
  <engine/>
  <door/>
  <wheel/>
</car>

Order is expressed as a list of elements, e.g.,

<eventList>
  <event n="1"/>
  <event n="2"/>
  <event n="3"/>
</eventList>

In the case of the "pes subipunctis" these might be combined like so,

<neume> <!-- this is the pes subipunctis -->
  <neume/> <!-- pes -->
  <neume/> <!-- first punctum -->
  <neume/> <!-- second punctum -->
</neume>

providing a 2-level structure that indicates in a fairly "natural" (or idiomatic XML) way that the pes subipunctis is "made up of" 3 ordered components.  Connections (which are non-structural) between the components can be indicated using one or more attributes.  I believe this alternative is better than @connection="gapped" because it doesn't mix structural and non-structural relationships.

--
p.


From: mei-neumes-ig [mailto:mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de>] On Behalf Of Kate Helsen
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 10:40 AM
To: Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative
Subject: Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2

In the list you have, we specifically did not try to describe any neume which looked like it was put together of several neumes. (Imagine, for example, that you have a pes followed by two puncti, the first higher than the second. That's called "Pes Subipunctis" and is considered one "neume", but it is made up of those two basic neumes, the second of which is repeated.

HOWEVER: now that we have "connection" as one of the attributes of the neume, and we can used "gapped connection" as a legit kind of connection, we can describe the compound neumes, right? That was my understanding, anyway. And, going on that, Inga and I are now adding those kind of neumes to the table. (That's why it's taking some time.)

Cheers,
K

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 6:06 AM, Ichiro Fujinaga <ich at music.mcgill.ca<mailto:ich at music.mcgill.ca>> wrote:
Here’s a question from Perry.

"How do so-called "compound neumes" fit into this system?  It doesn't appear to me that neumes can consist of other, more basic neumes.  Is that correct?’

Ich


_______________________________________________
mei-neumes-ig mailing list
mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de>
https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig


_______________________________________________
mei-neumes-ig mailing list
mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de>
https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig


_______________________________________________
mei-neumes-ig mailing list
mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de>
https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.uni-paderborn.de/pipermail/mei-neumes-ig/attachments/20160613/9b2bce6e/attachment.html>