[MEI-L] ...brackets in orchestral scores: Finale shapes, etc.

[Byrd, Donald A.]

Looking through a couple of dozens scores again -- none recent Schott 
editions -- the only instances I found of thin square brackets were in 
Symphony of Psalms (Boosey & Hawkes) and Prelude à l'Apres-midi d'un 
Faune (in Norton Scores, unidentified edition but I suspect Durand).

--DAB


On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 00:38:29 +0100, Joachim Veit 
<veit at weber-gesamtausgabe.de> wrote:

> Only a short "a parte":
> The form of the "thin square brackets" (Finale's option 6) is very
> often to be found (not only in Berlioz' example) in new Schott-Scores
> (e.g. in the new Schumann Complete edition). In the Weber edition we
> use them only in a very few special cases (I don't like them
> really...)
> Thanks for the interesting discussion! and best greetings,
> Joachim
>
>
> Am 13.12.13 04:12, schrieb Byrd, Donald A.:
>> Thanks, Perry. I was thinking of #3 and #5 as being basically square
>> brackets, but they're really not that square :-) . I don't think
>> I've seen any other shapes "in the wild" either.
>>
>> --DAB
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 19:10:27 +0000, "Roland, Perry (pdr4h)"
>> <pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Don,
>>>
>>> Finale provides 6 options in its "Group Attributes" dialog box. See
>>> http://www.finalemusic.com/usermanuals/finale2012win/content/finale/GROUPDLG.htm. I think "bracket" accurately describes options 3, 5, & 6 (from the left), "brace" being used for option 4.  I can't say that I've seen any other symbols 
>>> "in
>>> the
>>> wild".
>>>
>>> (NB -- My mention of Finale doesn't constitute any kind of
>>> endorsement.  It's just that its documentation is easily accessible.)
>>>
>>> MEI currently offers only "none", "brace", "bracket", and "line" as
>>> possibilities, where "line" is reserved for the thin line connecting
>>> the score/system staves.  These are sufficient to capture the broad
>>> categories of symbols, but they (especially "bracket") don't provide
>>> much in the way of visual detail.  The question is, how/where should
>>> that detail be located?
>>>
>>> My solution is to add "rule" and "bracketsq", representing Finale
>>> options 2 and 6, respectively.  This expands the level of visual
>>> detail encapsulated in the @symbol attribute, but still doesn't
>>> differentiate between options 3 and 5 or capture "typographical"
>>> features (so-called 'hook' shape, color, line width, etc.). However,
>>> it does provide the same level of granularity as MusicXML, enhancing
>>> loss-less conversion to/from MEI.
>>>
>>> Of course, multiple typographical details can't be captured in a
>>> single attribute value.  And it's bad practice to add more attributes
>>> to <staffGrp> to comment on the value in @symbol.  So, recording
>>> those details necessitates a <grpSym> child of <staffGrp> with its
>>> own attributes.  Those attributes can then be used to describe the
>>> symbol in greater detail or point to a precise rendition stored
>>> elsewhere.  This mechanism can be used for any symbol used to group
>>> staves, if someone does find an example outside the usual ones you
>>> mention, for instance in a manuscript score.
>>>
>>> Not exactly what you asked for, but helpful nonetheless I hope,
>>>
>>> --
>>> p.
>>>
>>> __________________________
>>> Perry Roland
>>> Music Library
>>> University of Virginia
>>> P. O. Box 400175
>>> Charlottesville, VA 22904
>>> 434-982-2702 (w)
>>> pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: mei-l [mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] on behalf of Byrd,
>>>  Donald A. [donbyrd at indiana.edu]
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:21 PM
>>> To: mei-l at lists.uni-paderborn.de
>>> Subject: Re: [MEI-L] Thin brackets in orchestral scores
>>>
>>> Leaving aside nesting and details like thinness, as far as I know, the
>>> _only_ symbols ever used to connect staves or groups of staves in CWMN
>>> are (1) curly braces, (2) square brackets, and (3) a thin line -- the
>>> last being used only to connect all the staves of a system. If there
>>> are others, I'd love to see an example.
>>>
>>> --Don
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 12:51:53 +0000, Andrew Hankinson
>>> <andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Zoltan,
>>>>
>>>> There is no limit to the number of nested staff groups. However, if
>>>> you have more than four nested staff groups, each with its own
>>>> bracket style, your engraver should be fired! :)
>>>>
>>>> @symbol is simply meant to indicate that there is a ?generic?
>>>> bracket, brace, or line present. This is to give a visual hint, but
>>>> not a visual definition, to any software parsing the MEI file. Do you
>>>> have any examples of connecting symbols that are not one of these?
>>>> (Beyond those previously discussed by Laurent?)
>>>>
>>>> -Andrew
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 12, 2013, at 4:30 AM, K?míves Zoltán
>>>> <zolaemil at gmail.com<mailto:zolaemil at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Perry,
>>>>
>>>> It makes sense to separately encode the visual characteristics in a
>>>> child element, such as <grpSym>. Forgive me for my ignorance about
>>>> the existence of this element!
>>>>
>>>> However, I contemplate the problem of having too few values for @symbol.
>>>>
>>>> Consider the following statement: "there are N different symbols used
>>>> in the score that connect groups of staves". How would you encode the
>>>> staff groups if N>=4?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Zoltan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2013/12/11 Roland, Perry (pdr4h)
>>>> <pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu<mailto:pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Zoltan,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some elements (but not <staffGrp>) already allow @altsym, which
>>>> contains a pointer to a <symbolDef> element that, in turn, contains
>>>> instructions on how to "draw" the symbol.  This area of the schema
>>>> has not been exercised much and could therefore use a lot of work.
>>>> However, I think <symbolDef> could be extended to contain SVG,
>>>> PostScript, etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Turning to how this would work with <staffGrp>, the @altsym attribute
>>>> doesn't actually belong on <staffGrp>.  It's the visual
>>>> characteristics of <grpSym> we're trying to capture, not those of
>>>> <staffGrp>.  I believe this is what Andrew's comment was intended to
>>>> mean.  So, instead of <staffGrp>, <grpSym>, which can be a child of
>>>> <staffGrp>, should bear @altsym, e.g.,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <staffGrp xml:id="P2" label="Piano" barthru="true">
>>>>
>>>>  <grpSym symbol="brace" altsym="#myBrace"/>
>>>>
>>>>  <staffDef ...
>>>>
>>>> </staffGrp>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Although sometimes it can't be avoided, it's generally bad practice
>>>> to use attributes to describe other attributes.  The usual way to
>>>> handle this is to "promote" an attribute to element status and then
>>>> give it its own attributes.  That's what <grpSym> is doing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The <grpSym> element, however, still has the @symbol attribute with
>>>> the same values as when it's used on <staffGrp>.  In effect,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <staffGrp symbol="brace">
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> is short-hand for
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <staffGrp><grpSym symbol="brace"/>.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In other words, as in several places in MEI, it's possible to use
>>>> attributes for less-detail-oriented encodings (for example, when you
>>>> don't care what the brace looks like), but use elements when you do.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> p.
>>>>
>>>> __________________________
>>>> Perry Roland
>>>> Music Library
>>>> University of Virginia
>>>> P. O. Box 400175
>>>> Charlottesville, VA 22904
>>>> 434-982-2702<tel:434-982-2702> (w)
>>>> pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: mei-l
>>>> [mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de>] on 
>>>> behalf
>>>> of
>>>> Zoltán
>>>> K?míves
>>>> [zolaemil at gmail.com<mailto:zolaemil at gmail.com>]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 5:10 PM
>>>>
>>>> To: Music Encoding Initiative
>>>> Subject: Re: [MEI-L] Thin brackets in orchestral scores
>>>>
>>>> Hi Andrew,
>>>>
>>>> The grouping of staves is captured by the staffGrp elements without
>>>> specifying @symbol. @symbol captures additional information. I talk
>>>> about this additional content.
>>>>
>>>> Zoltan
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Andrew Hankinson<mailto:andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca>
>>>> Sent: 2013.12.11. 20:45
>>>> To: Music Encoding Initiative<mailto:mei-l at lists.uni-paderborn.de>
>>>> Subject: Re: [MEI-L] Thin brackets in orchestral scores
>>>>
>>>> The intellectual content (?logical domain?) is the groups of staves,
>>>> not the symbol.
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 11, 2013, at 2:06 PM, K?míves Zoltán
>>>> <zolaemil at gmail.com<mailto:zolaemil at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> Would you mind to read my crazy thoughts about this issue? I'm just
>>>> curious what you people think of my thinking.
>>>>
>>>> I think the "intellectual content" in this case isn't so much how the
>>>> connecting symbols look, but the fact that the symbols are
>>>> *different*.
>>>>
>>>> The current values of @symbol already bear some sort of graphical
>>>> information, I think. The problem arose now, because it seems that
>>>> the current set of values don't provide a *complete" classification
>>>> (that is, in some cases there's no value which describes the symbol's
>>>> graphical shape appropriately). But of course, it's impossible to
>>>> provide a complete classification without degrading the markup to SVG.
>>>>
>>>> If we accept that the intellectual content is the *difference*
>>>> between the connecting symbols, then the proper separation of the
>>>> "intellectual content" from it's graphical representation would be to
>>>> use a set of values something like this:
>>>>
>>>> "symbol1",
>>>> "symbol2",
>>>> "symbol3",
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> If one wanted to capture more info about their "look and feel", one
>>>> could use some pointing mechanism to point to a different element
>>>> that records the graphical info (possibly even pointing to an
>>>> external SVG...)
>>>>
>>>> I know, it's a crazy abstraction. And it may be way too abstract
>>>> compared to its practical use, and we could be better off adding a
>>>> handful of carefully defined values.
>>>>
>>>> Zoltan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2013/12/11 Laurent Pugin
>>>> <laurent at music.mcgill.ca<mailto:laurent at music.mcgill.ca>>
>>>> It seems to me that adding "bracketsq" as a possible value would be
>>>> an appropriate addition. I don't think this particular case should
>>>> necessary open up a discussion on what is just typesetting or not.
>>>>
>>>> Laurent
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Roland, Perry (pdr4h)
>>>> <pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu<mailto:pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> Yes, caution is advised.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> p.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________________________
>>>> Perry Roland
>>>> Music Library
>>>> University of Virginia
>>>> P. O. Box 400175
>>>> Charlottesville, VA 22904
>>>> 434-982-2702<tel:434-982-2702> (w)
>>>> pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: mei-l
>>>> [mei-l-bounces+pdr4h=virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de>] on 
>>>> behalf
>>>> of
>>>> Johannes
>>>> Kepper
>>>> [kepper at edirom.de<mailto:kepper at edirom.de>]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:02 AM
>>>>
>>>> To: Music Encoding Initiative
>>>> Subject: Re: [MEI-L] Thin brackets in orchestral scores
>>>>
>>>> While there is certainly no harm in adding a well-defined set of
>>>> additional attribute values, the risk I see is that the distinction
>>>> between these values gets harder every time, eventually watering down
>>>> their expressiveness in terms of interchange. I'm not saying we're
>>>> reaching that point here, I'm just saying that we should be careful?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 11.12.2013 um 15:58 schrieb Roland, Perry (pdr4h)
>>>> <pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu<mailto:pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu>>:
>>>>
>>>>> The "land of music typesetting" is always nearby, not unlike a 4th
>>>>> dimension hovering around us and within us.  :-) Intellectual
>>>>> content and presentation are always difficult to separate. But try
>>>>> we must.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are already issues in the tracker related to @symbol -- nos.
>>>>> 180 & 182.
>>>>>
>>>>> From issue #180 -- "The top and bottom components of a bracket can
>>>>> be rendered as curved (similar to Unicode #x1D115) or straight
>>>>> (similar to Unicode #x0005B). The simplest method of dealing with
>>>>> this distinction is to add "bracketsq" (bracket square) to the
>>>>> values allowed by @symbol.  "bracket" will continue to be used for
>>>>> the usual, curved musical bracket. The documentation should be
>>>>> edited to make the distinction clear."
>>>>>
>>>>> I won't attempt to reproduce #182 here, but it covers the selection
>>>>> of a value for @symbol that captures a line (often fairly wide) used
>>>>> to group systems instead of a brace or bracket.  There's an image in
>>>>> #182 that illustrates various grouping symbols.
>>>>>
>>>>> Neither the so-called square bracket nor the
>>>>> wide-line-grouping-symbol can be encoded using @symbol="line" since
>>>>> that value is already reserved for the line connecting the staves at
>>>>> their left edge.  I'm partial to the value "rule", but I'm open to
>>>>> suggestions.
>>>>>
>>>>> I see no harm in adding generic values like this to MEI because they
>>>>> are what I like to call "rendering hints" for the intellectual
>>>>> content -- in this case the staff group.  But obviously this
>>>>> mechanism is not optimal for capturing all the visual details of the
>>>>> symbol, such as line width, color, position, etc.  I am somewhat
>>>>> trepidatious about going too far down that road, at the end of which
>>>>> MEI becomes a re-definition of SVG.  :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, there are still things to add to MEI.  And, yes, this is an
>>>>> opportunity to do so.  Now, if there were only more hours in the day
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> p.
>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________
>>>>> Perry Roland
>>>>> Music Library
>>>>> University of Virginia
>>>>> P. O. Box 400175
>>>>> Charlottesville, VA 22904
>>>>> 434-982-2702<tel:434-982-2702> (w)
>>>>> pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> From: mei-l
>>>>> [mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de>] on 
>>>>> behalf
>>>>> of
>>>>> Johannes
>>>>> Kepper
>>>>> [kepper at edirom.de<mailto:kepper at edirom.de>]
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 8:47 AM
>>>>> To: Music Encoding Initiative
>>>>> Subject: Re: [MEI-L] Thin brackets in orchestral scores
>>>>>
>>>>> The reason why I feel slightly uneasy with this all is that it seems
>>>>> that we seem to enter the land of a music typesetting program here.
>>>>> In my ignorance about such details, I would probably encode that as
>>>>> a line, and ignore the fact that it is connected on both ends. In
>>>>> manuscripts, there would probably be no difference between this and
>>>>> either brackets or lines. But maybe you're right, and we should
>>>>> include the additional value. @Perry, do I remember correctly that
>>>>> you spotted some values in MusicXML not currently supported by MEI
>>>>> anyway? Is this an opportunity to revise them?
>>>>>
>>>>> jo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 11.12.2013 um 14:39 schrieb Laurent Pugin
>>>>> <laurent at music.mcgill.ca<mailto:laurent at music.mcgill.ca>>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You are right, I think it is missing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are actually a few of them in the examples, at least there is
>>>>>> this one (however with no representation in the encoding)
>>>>>> http://www.music-encoding.org/sampleCollection/encodings/Berlioz_Symphony_op25.pdf
>>>>>> Laurent
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 1:21 PM, TW
>>>>>> <zupftom at googlemail.com<mailto:zupftom at googlemail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> Laurent's post made me wonder whether we might be missing an
>>>>>> additional value for staffGrp/@symbol for the thin bracket that is
>>>>>> used for sub-groups in orchestral scores[1].  Looking at some PDFs in
>>>>>> the sample collection I didn't see anything like that (I didn't look
>>>>>> through all of them).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thomas
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] see e.g. http://notengrafik.com/pdf/examples/Tchaikovsky.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> mei-l mailing list
>>>>>> mei-l at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:mei-l at lists.uni-paderborn.de>
>>>>>> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> mei-l mailing list
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>>>>>> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr. Johannes Kepper
>>>>> BMBF-Projekt "Freischütz Digital"
>>>>>
>>>>> Musikwiss. Seminar Detmold / Paderborn
>>>>> Gartenstraße 20
>>>>> 32756 Detmold
>>>>>
>>>>> Tel. +49 5231 975669<tel:%2B49%205231%20975669>
>>>>> Mail: kepper at edirom.de<mailto:kepper at edirom.de>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mei-l mailing list
>>>>> mei-l at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:mei-l at lists.uni-paderborn.de>
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>>>
>


--
Donald Byrd
Woodrow Wilson Indiana Teaching Fellow
Adjunct Associate Professor of Informatics
Visiting Scientist, Research Technologies
Indiana University Bloomington