[MEI-L] Standards (was: File extensions)

Sigfrid Lundberg slu at kb.dk
Mon Aug 19 15:23:14 CEST 2013


The html versions you mention share mime type text/html

Then there currently a conflict whether or not xhtml with html5 semantics should be allowed to use to use that mime type, or should use application/xhtml+xml [1]

The worms in that can are big as Boa constrictors

Sigfrid

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/
________________________________________
Fra: mei-l-bounces+slu=kb.dk at lists.uni-paderborn.de [mei-l-bounces+slu=kb.dk at lists.uni-paderborn.de] på vegne af Johannes Kepper [kepper at edirom.de]
Sendt: 19. august 2013 12:40
Til: Music Encoding Initiative
Emne: Re: [MEI-L] Standards (was: File extensions)

two cents from someone who's completely in the dark…

I don't like the "vendor" term: To my (non-native english) ears, it sounds a little bit too commercial. It may or may not fit for MusicXML, but it doesn't seem to fit for us. If there are other tracks, we should follow them instead.

If (S|s)tandard in the mimetype sense means something completely determined, it's not appropriate for us. We shouldn't restrict our future development by stocking ourselves to one specific version of MEI which may not be changed easily anymore. I wouldn't even do this for a defined subset of MEI (like cmn), as it has the potential to cannibalize the community, weakening support for other, more obscure parts of MEI. However, if (S|s)tandard is meant to be more open, I'm fine with this. For instance, do HTML3.2, 4.01 (transitional and strict) and 5 share one mimetype? If so, it seems comparable to our situation.


best,
jo




Am 19.08.2013 um 12:28 schrieb Sigfrid Lundberg <slu at kb.dk>:

> Sorry for using the word standard.
>
> Suppose it is better to describe our business as we are dealers in methodologies for the description of what is known about pieces of symbolic music.
>
> As a long term subscriber to the xml-dev list I'm used to worms, which doesn't mean that I like them, or even eat them.
>
> Sigfrid
>
> ________________________________________
> Fra: mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de [mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] på vegne af Andrew Hankinson [andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca]
> Sendt: 19. august 2013 11:51
> Til: Music Encoding Initiative
> Emne: Re: [MEI-L] Standards (was: File extensions)
>
> Oof. That's a can of worms.
>
> Warning: Lots of opinions to follow.
>
> If you're creating physical widgets where part A needs to fit with part B, big-S Standards can be a great thing.
>
> For a small and loosely-bound community like MEI, a Standard wouldn't really bring much to the table, and, I think, would actually cause more harm than good. What do we standardize? The complete ODD file, including the parts of the ODD file that are mutually exclusive? (see: integration of both mensural and CMN timing modules…) The CMN customization? Any decision to standardize something will likely exclude a significant part of the community. We can't even come to a consensus about which file extension to use!
>
> What MEI brings to the world isn't actually an XML schema. I like to think that you can express MEI in any formalized structure. XML brings the ability to validate and impose constraints, but if XML was to be eclipsed by another structural language (like SGML was eclipsed by XML…) then I think that the intellectual structure of MEI could simply be transplanted to the new system.
>
> So, in a roundabout answer to your question: No, I don't think we're creating a Standard. I think we're creating a method, and I think with time and usage certain parts of this method may emerge to a de-facto standard, or even, yes, a Standard. But MEI as a whole? I don't think we should even think of trying to register this as a Standard. There's just too many moving parts.
>
> A vendor-specific mime type seems to be the most flexible method. In my reading about mime type registration, the "x-" prefix was used for experimental or non-standard use. Since RFC6648, however, this has been deprecated. Current best practice, as far as I can tell, says that non-standards-track mime types should be registered under the vendor-specific or personal (vanity) track. I would be happy to be corrected, though -- I'm new at this!
>
> So, application/vnd.mei+xml, or application/vnd.mei+json, or application/vnd.mei-common+yaml, or application/vnd.mei-mensural+candle [1] --- all of these are possibilities, but trying to go through the Standardization process for them seems like a lot of work for little, no, or even negative gain.
>
> -Andrew
>
> [1] http://www.candlescript.org/doc/candle-markup-reference.htm
>
> On 2013-08-19, at 9:18 AM, Sigfrid Lundberg <slu at kb.dk> wrote:
>
>> I know that, but why do you want it to register it as a vendor specific format.
>>
>> We're creating a standard, arn't we?
>>
>> Sigge
>> ________________________________________
>> Fra: mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de [mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] på vegne af Andrew Hankinson [andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca]
>> Sendt: 16. august 2013 23:53
>> Til: Music Encoding Initiative
>> Emne: Re: [MEI-L] File extensions
>>
>> Not quite orthogonal. A web server will serve files with the specified extension as a given mime-type. It's true that you can write the mime type to the header if you're in a web application environment, but by registering a mime type we can provide a method for placing MEI files on a server, and it opening in a default application on the users' machine, for example.
>>
>> This can be especially useful in a mobile environment, where sometimes you have limited control over which application will open a downloaded file.
>>
>> So, in a web context the extension does matter, since (by default) the web server will serve files with a given extension with a certain mime type. That's the second part of the mime type definition for servers: "application/vnd.mei+xml .mei" maps all .mei files to the application/vnd.mei+xml mime type.
>>
>> Using .xml is fine if you want to open it in an XML editor. However, if we want to open it in a notation editor (dreaming of the future) then it's best if we choose .mei now, and then allow the user to specify the application that handles it as needed.
>>
>> To answer Sigfrid: vnd. is the Vendor-specific mime type. As far as I understand, appending vnd. makes the mime type registration process much easier, since it doesn't need to go through the standards bodies to be approved. The MusicXML mime type uses the vnd. prefix, something like "application/vnd.recordare-musicxml+xml" So I thought that we might go for the easy registration first. It doesn't preclude later registration of a more formal mimetype. But here I will defer to those with more experience in the process.
>>
>> -Andrew
>>
>>
>> On 2013-08-15, at 6:27 PM, Raffaele Viglianti <raffaeleviglianti at gmail.com<mailto:raffaeleviglianti at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Andrew Hankinson <andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca<mailto:andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca>> wrote:
>>
>> application/vnd.mei+xml .xml -> Mapping .xml to the MEI mime type seems like a big problem.
>>
>> application/vnd.mei+xml .mei -> Seems like the best solution, yes?
>>
>> As far as I know mimetype is orthogonal to file extension, so even if we secure a mimetype application/mei+xml it won't matter if your file has .xml or .mei extension.
>>
>> I personally don't see an issue with file extension at all. What's the problem with using either .mei or .xml? In a web context all that matters is the mimetype, in a OS context, using .xml is generally going to make things easier, but it's not eventually not a big deal.
>>
>> Raf
>>
>>
>> (the MEI mime type I give is just an example).
>>
>> -Andrew
>>
>>
>> On 2013-08-15, at 5:47 PM, Sigfrid Lundberg <slu at kb.dk<mailto:slu at kb.dk>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> .txt is a poor choice. Most web servers will deliver that as text/plain which is not what you want. In apache web server there is a file mime-types which connects extensions to mime types, which then interacts with users web clients and plug-ins and helper applications
>>>
>>> Sigfrid
>>> ________________________________________
>>> Fra: mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de> [mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de>] på vegne af Andrew Hankinson [andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca<mailto:andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca>]
>>> Sendt: 15. august 2013 17:23
>>> Til: Music Encoding Initiative
>>> Emne: Re: [MEI-L] File extensions
>>>
>>> You can sign me up too.
>>>
>>> Personally, I like .mei. XML could also be thought of as plain text, so I would argue that we should go with the most specific usage, rather than the most general. We could just go with .txt and be just as correct as .xml.
>>>
>>> Either way, though, I think this is an appropriate topic for putting some guidance in the Guidelines. I'll volunteer to write it, but I would like some way of getting a consensus.
>>>
>>> Any ideas? An online poll?
>>>
>>> -Andrew
>>>
>>> On 2013-08-15, at 5:09 PM, "Roland, Perry (pdr4h)" <pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu<mailto:pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sigge,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for being so gracious in your acceptance of my effort to "volunteer" you.
>>>>
>>>> There's no rush on this.  After Christmas/beginning of 2014 is fine.  I'm sure you'll find willing volunteers to help you write the proposal.  You can "volunteer" me in return.  :-)
>>>>
>>>> Anyone who wants to participate, please contact Sigge.  I hear he's starting a list.  :-)
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again,
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> p.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________________________
>>>> Perry Roland
>>>> Music Library
>>>> University of Virginia
>>>> P. O. Box 400175
>>>> Charlottesville, VA 22904
>>>> 434-982-2702<tel:434-982-2702> (w)
>>>> pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: mei-l-bounces+pdr4h=virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de> [mei-l-bounces+pdr4h=virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de>] on behalf of Sigfrid Lundberg [slu at kb.dk<mailto:slu at kb.dk>]
>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 10:49 AM
>>>> To: Music Encoding Initiative
>>>> Subject: Re: [MEI-L] File extensions
>>>>
>>>> My keyboard is too fast.
>>>>
>>>> Cannot promise to write it alone and have to discuss it here in Copenhagen. Not before Christmas, that's for sure
>>>>
>>>> S
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> Fra: mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de> [mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de>] på vegne af Roland, Perry (pdr4h) [pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu<mailto:pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu>]
>>>> Sendt: 15. august 2013 16:44
>>>> Til: Music Encoding Initiative
>>>> Emne: Re: [MEI-L] File extensions
>>>>
>>>> Hi Sigfrid,
>>>>
>>>> Sounds like we have a volunteer to lead the way to registering an MEI mimetype.  :-)
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> p.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________________________
>>>> Perry Roland
>>>> Music Library
>>>> University of Virginia
>>>> P. O. Box 400175
>>>> Charlottesville, VA 22904
>>>> 434-982-2702<tel:434-982-2702> (w)
>>>> pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de> [mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de>] on behalf of Sigfrid Lundberg [slu at kb.dk<mailto:slu at kb.dk>]
>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2013 10:39 AM
>>>> To: Music Encoding Initiative
>>>> Subject: Re: [MEI-L] File extensions
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I'm using .xml as suffix. Don't really care.
>>>>
>>>> As I'm a coauthor of RFC6129 (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6129) I have strong opinions on your "by the way" question. Yes, we should register a mime type, and it should be application/mei+xml. Since it is in the application hierarchy it requires an RFC and some negotiations with IESG and IETF before one get a line in the appropriate IANA document.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Sigfrid
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> Fra: mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de> [mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de>] på vegne af Andrew Hankinson [andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca<mailto:andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca>]
>>>> Sendt: 15. august 2013 16:12
>>>> Til: Music Encoding Initiative
>>>> Emne: [MEI-L] File extensions
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> Is there a common understanding of what the proper file extension for MEI files should be?
>>>>
>>>> I've been assuming .mei is the "standard", but a counter-example of .xml was recently brought to my attention. So, I thought I'd poll the collected wisdom and see what others were doing. Are you using .xml, .mei, or some other variation on these?
>>>>
>>>> -Andrew
>>>>
>>>> ====
>>>> Related:
>>>> -- Should we register an actual mimetype? Maybe: application/vnd.music-encoding+xml ?
>>>>
>>>>
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