From ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca  Sat Oct 14 23:58:50 2017
From: ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca (Ichiro Fujinaga, Prof.)
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2017 21:58:50 +0000
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Cantus Ultimus meeting in Halifax
Message-ID: <E80BBB2B-756A-40D0-A101-EE98798A54A5@mcgill.ca>

Dear all,

Below is an overview of what was discussed on changes to the MEI Neumes Module Draft, from Version 0.20 to 0.21 (I will post this in a separate email), at the Cantus Ultimus Meeting (SIMSSA Workshop XIII) on 22 September 2017 in Halifax. Thanks to Becky Shaw and Debra Lacoste, who took notes.
Present were: Jennifer Bain, Inga Behrendt, Mark Daley, Elsa De Luca, Ichiro Fujinaga, Kate Helsen, Alessandra Ignesti, Debra Lacoste, Sarah Long, Becky Shaw, and Mirka Tiede.

Ichiro

===================================
@angular 
change to @angled (to complement @curved)
the ‘plain’ option is unnecessary
‘staircase’ describes a neume’s general shape rather than the specific connection between two pitches; i.e., a ‘staircase’ is made up of one or more ‘v-shapes’
because ‘plain’ and ‘staircase’ are no longer needed, @angular can be simplified to mean one thing: @angled

@len
for Old Hispanic neumes, in particular, we need a means of differentiating the length of sections of a neume
two options:
- add @len with ‘long’ and ‘short’ options (if it is middle-length, it does not require a designation under @len)
- add a relative length attribute to indicate pen-strokes that are longer or shorter in relation to other pen strokes within the same neume

@wavy
change @wavy to @s-shape with the following options to indicate the initial direction of the pen-stroke:
s (south), w (west), n (north), e (east)

@con
add ‘extended’ option

@quilisma
- the attribute quilisma cannot go with the <nc> because <nc> is defined as a single pitch event
- solutions?
-- make each curve of the quilisma a single neume component
-- change the definition of the <nc>
-- move the quilisma attribute to the level of the <neume> (maybe this one -- if no one can think of a reason why not)

(This was later solved by considering quilisma as a single pitch event.)

@intm at all levels:
- can we change "u" to "h", and "d" to "l" in order to be consistent?
- sh and sl are already in use.
Is there any previous work using u and d that we are obliged to follow?
Yes, the “u” and “d” values were already defined for the @intm attribute.

@hook
the @hook will stay at the level of the <nc> (not <neume>)

@len
rethink relative lengths of strokes within a neume
- create a new attribute?  Elsa has an idea that involves the @con attribute, so maybe that can be a solution (but we were interrupted by the start of the Salzinnes Exhibit tour.)

 

From ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca  Sun Oct 15 00:26:00 2017
From: ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca (Ichiro Fujinaga, Prof.)
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2017 22:26:00 +0000
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21
Message-ID: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>

Dear all,

Subsequent to the Cantus Ultimus meeting, we had several discussions in Halifax. This resulted in the MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21.

The changes from Version 0.2 can be viewed here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14EVIGmBPdEtw7vXOPK8Uas7MG6WK6mxy_gQGSMpZH9A/edit?usp=sharing

I strongly suggest, for the ease of discussions online, that comments and questions on the Draft be restricted to one topic per email, e.g., one attribute at a time.

Ichiro

=========================================
MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21 (2017-10-14)

A <neume> element consists of one or more <nc> element(s).
A <nc> (neume component) element is a single pitched event, although the exact pitch may not be known.

Attributes for <neume>:
@significative letters
@hispanicTick (type1|type2) ((further specifications required)

Attributes for <nc>:
@pname
@oct
@intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <neume>) {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh = same or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))
@s-shaped {n|e|s|w) (north, east, south, west; the direction of the initial long stroke, i.e., the standard letter S is “w”, its mirror shape is “e”, the letter turned 90-degrees on its side is “s”, and its mirror shape is “n”)
@significative letters
@curved {a|c} (anticlockwise, clockwise)
@angled
@liquescence
@episema
@len (s|l} (short, long)
@tilt {n|ne|e|se|s|sw|w|ne} (north, northeast, etc.)
@quilisma {2|3|4} (2, 3, or 4 curves)
@con {g|l|e}  (gapped, looped, extended) (connection to the previous <nc> within the same <neume>)


From andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca  Sun Oct 15 10:46:20 2017
From: andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca (Andrew Hankinson)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 08:46:20 +0000
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21
In-Reply-To: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <5C6A0ED4-C703-4BF6-B14E-E65879D4A4EC@mail.mcgill.ca>

Thanks, Ich (and all involved!). Perry and I had a look over the previous proposals last week in Charlottesville, and I think we will be coming out with some recommendations in a bit. But I will respond individually to some of these attributes in a separate message.

> On 15 Oct 2017, at 00:26, Ichiro Fujinaga, Prof. <ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca> wrote:
> 
> [This sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they appear to be. Learn about spoofing at http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSpoofing]
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> Subsequent to the Cantus Ultimus meeting, we had several discussions in Halifax. This resulted in the MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21.
> 
> The changes from Version 0.2 can be viewed here:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/14EVIGmBPdEtw7vXOPK8Uas7MG6WK6mxy_gQGSMpZH9A/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> I strongly suggest, for the ease of discussions online, that comments and questions on the Draft be restricted to one topic per email, e.g., one attribute at a time.
> 
> Ichiro
> 
> =========================================
> MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21 (2017-10-14)
> 
> A <neume> element consists of one or more <nc> element(s).
> A <nc> (neume component) element is a single pitched event, although the exact pitch may not be known.
> 
> Attributes for <neume>:
> @significative letters
> @hispanicTick (type1|type2) ((further specifications required)
> 
> Attributes for <nc>:
> @pname
> @oct
> @intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <neume>) {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh = same or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))
> @s-shaped {n|e|s|w) (north, east, south, west; the direction of the initial long stroke, i.e., the standard letter S is “w”, its mirror shape is “e”, the letter turned 90-degrees on its side is “s”, and its mirror shape is “n”)
> @significative letters
> @curved {a|c} (anticlockwise, clockwise)
> @angled
> @liquescence
> @episema
> @len (s|l} (short, long)
> @tilt {n|ne|e|se|s|sw|w|ne} (north, northeast, etc.)
> @quilisma {2|3|4} (2, 3, or 4 curves)
> @con {g|l|e}  (gapped, looped, extended) (connection to the previous <nc> within the same <neume>)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig


From andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca  Sun Oct 15 10:50:37 2017
From: andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca (Andrew Hankinson)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 08:50:37 +0000
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21
In-Reply-To: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <81399215-FAAD-48FD-9ED9-725E6B98C6AC@mail.mcgill.ca>

Attribute: @intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <neume>) {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh = same or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))

I'm not sure this should be relative to the previous neume, and not nc. If it's relative to the previous neume element, then it would only apply to the first nc in a neume, right? And then there is no way to describe the contour within the neume.


> On 15 Oct 2017, at 00:26, Ichiro Fujinaga, Prof. <ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca> wrote:
> 
> [This sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they appear to be. Learn about spoofing at http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSpoofing]
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> Subsequent to the Cantus Ultimus meeting, we had several discussions in Halifax. This resulted in the MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21.
> 
> The changes from Version 0.2 can be viewed here:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/14EVIGmBPdEtw7vXOPK8Uas7MG6WK6mxy_gQGSMpZH9A/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> I strongly suggest, for the ease of discussions online, that comments and questions on the Draft be restricted to one topic per email, e.g., one attribute at a time.
> 
> Ichiro
> 
> =========================================
> MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21 (2017-10-14)
> 
> A <neume> element consists of one or more <nc> element(s).
> A <nc> (neume component) element is a single pitched event, although the exact pitch may not be known.
> 
> Attributes for <neume>:
> @significative letters
> @hispanicTick (type1|type2) ((further specifications required)
> 
> Attributes for <nc>:
> @pname
> @oct
> @intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <neume>) {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh = same or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))
> @s-shaped {n|e|s|w) (north, east, south, west; the direction of the initial long stroke, i.e., the standard letter S is “w”, its mirror shape is “e”, the letter turned 90-degrees on its side is “s”, and its mirror shape is “n”)
> @significative letters
> @curved {a|c} (anticlockwise, clockwise)
> @angled
> @liquescence
> @episema
> @len (s|l} (short, long)
> @tilt {n|ne|e|se|s|sw|w|ne} (north, northeast, etc.)
> @quilisma {2|3|4} (2, 3, or 4 curves)
> @con {g|l|e}  (gapped, looped, extended) (connection to the previous <nc> within the same <neume>)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig


From andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca  Sun Oct 15 10:58:09 2017
From: andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca (Andrew Hankinson)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 08:58:09 +0000
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] @s-shaped, MEI 0.21
In-Reply-To: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <028CAC9A-C7AB-4EC9-BD84-DB551D96F5F5@mail.mcgill.ca>

Attribute: @s-shaped {n|e|s|w) (north, east, south, west; the direction of the initial long stroke, i.e., the standard letter S is “w”, its mirror shape is “e”, the letter turned 90-degrees on its side is “s”, and its mirror shape is “n”)

(As a matter of style, MEI adopts a camel-case method for naming its attributes, so this would be @sShaped)

This is problematic. If a line is written such that is not aligned perpendicular to the page edges, or it curves, or the page edges are not 90°) then from what baseline should the directional reference be? 

It is imperative to remember that this will be used to encode the music notation, not describe the shapes on a page.

I would strongly suggest this be dropped, and another method of encoding the same information be developed.


> On 15 Oct 2017, at 00:26, Ichiro Fujinaga, Prof. <ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca> wrote:
> 
> [This sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they appear to be. Learn about spoofing at http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSpoofing]
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> Subsequent to the Cantus Ultimus meeting, we had several discussions in Halifax. This resulted in the MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21.
> 
> The changes from Version 0.2 can be viewed here:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/14EVIGmBPdEtw7vXOPK8Uas7MG6WK6mxy_gQGSMpZH9A/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> I strongly suggest, for the ease of discussions online, that comments and questions on the Draft be restricted to one topic per email, e.g., one attribute at a time.
> 
> Ichiro
> 
> =========================================
> MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21 (2017-10-14)
> 
> A <neume> element consists of one or more <nc> element(s).
> A <nc> (neume component) element is a single pitched event, although the exact pitch may not be known.
> 
> Attributes for <neume>:
> @significative letters
> @hispanicTick (type1|type2) ((further specifications required)
> 
> Attributes for <nc>:
> @pname
> @oct
> @intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <neume>) {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh = same or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))
> @s-shaped {n|e|s|w) (north, east, south, west; the direction of the initial long stroke, i.e., the standard letter S is “w”, its mirror shape is “e”, the letter turned 90-degrees on its side is “s”, and its mirror shape is “n”)
> @significative letters
> @curved {a|c} (anticlockwise, clockwise)
> @angled
> @liquescence
> @episema
> @len (s|l} (short, long)
> @tilt {n|ne|e|se|s|sw|w|ne} (north, northeast, etc.)
> @quilisma {2|3|4} (2, 3, or 4 curves)
> @con {g|l|e}  (gapped, looped, extended) (connection to the previous <nc> within the same <neume>)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig


From elsa at campus.ul.pt  Sun Oct 15 10:59:19 2017
From: elsa at campus.ul.pt (Elsa De Luca)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 09:59:19 +0100
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21
In-Reply-To: <81399215-FAAD-48FD-9ED9-725E6B98C6AC@mail.mcgill.ca>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
 <81399215-FAAD-48FD-9ED9-725E6B98C6AC@mail.mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <CAE93WZX+o1NeOiVbQAEyfkCf1AYmqHF-u2EFMBiYTRy1mYNwKA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Andrew,

Yes, y
ou are right, @intm refers to the previous nc. Sometimes a neume is made of
one nc but the attribute @intm  definitely refers to the previous <nc>​



Elsa De Luca <http://cesem.fcsh.unl.pt/en/pessoa/elsa-de-luca/>

CESEM (Centre for the Study of the Sociology and Aesthetic of Music)

Faculdade de Ciências Sociais e Humanas – NOVA FCSH

Av. de Berna, 26 C, 1069-061

Lisbon, Portugal

On 15 October 2017 at 09:50, Andrew Hankinson <
andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca> wrote:

> Attribute: @intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <neume>)
> {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh = same
> or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))
>
> I'm not sure this should be relative to the previous neume, and not nc. If
> it's relative to the previous neume element, then it would only apply to
> the first nc in a neume, right? And then there is no way to describe the
> contour within the neume.
>
>
> > On 15 Oct 2017, at 00:26, Ichiro Fujinaga, Prof. <
> ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca> wrote:
> >
> > [This sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they
> appear to be. Learn about spoofing at http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSpoofing]
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > Subsequent to the Cantus Ultimus meeting, we had several discussions in
> Halifax. This resulted in the MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21.
> >
> > The changes from Version 0.2 can be viewed here:
> > https://docs.google.com/document/d/14EVIGmBPdEtw7vXOPK8Uas7MG6WK6
> mxy_gQGSMpZH9A/edit?usp=sharing
> >
> > I strongly suggest, for the ease of discussions online, that comments
> and questions on the Draft be restricted to one topic per email, e.g., one
> attribute at a time.
> >
> > Ichiro
> >
> > =========================================
> > MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21 (2017-10-14)
> >
> > A <neume> element consists of one or more <nc> element(s).
> > A <nc> (neume component) element is a single pitched event, although the
> exact pitch may not be known.
> >
> > Attributes for <neume>:
> > @significative letters
> > @hispanicTick (type1|type2) ((further specifications required)
> >
> > Attributes for <nc>:
> > @pname
> > @oct
> > @intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <neume>)
> {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh = same
> or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))
> > @s-shaped {n|e|s|w) (north, east, south, west; the direction of the
> initial long stroke, i.e., the standard letter S is “w”, its mirror shape
> is “e”, the letter turned 90-degrees on its side is “s”, and its mirror
> shape is “n”)
> > @significative letters
> > @curved {a|c} (anticlockwise, clockwise)
> > @angled
> > @liquescence
> > @episema
> > @len (s|l} (short, long)
> > @tilt {n|ne|e|se|s|sw|w|ne} (north, northeast, etc.)
> > @quilisma {2|3|4} (2, 3, or 4 curves)
> > @con {g|l|e}  (gapped, looped, extended) (connection to the previous
> <nc> within the same <neume>)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig
>
> _______________________________________________
> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig
>
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From andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca  Sun Oct 15 10:59:55 2017
From: andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca (Andrew Hankinson)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 08:59:55 +0000
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] @tilt, MEI neumes 0.21
In-Reply-To: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <97AE55F2-ADF8-45F0-89DE-6E9AC28D02CB@mail.mcgill.ca>

Attribute: @tilt {n|ne|e|se|s|sw|w|ne} (north, northeast, etc.)

My previous message about directionality in MEI applies here too.

> On 15 Oct 2017, at 00:26, Ichiro Fujinaga, Prof. <ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca> wrote:
> 
> [This sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they appear to be. Learn about spoofing at http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSpoofing]
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> Subsequent to the Cantus Ultimus meeting, we had several discussions in Halifax. This resulted in the MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21.
> 
> The changes from Version 0.2 can be viewed here:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/14EVIGmBPdEtw7vXOPK8Uas7MG6WK6mxy_gQGSMpZH9A/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> I strongly suggest, for the ease of discussions online, that comments and questions on the Draft be restricted to one topic per email, e.g., one attribute at a time.
> 
> Ichiro
> 
> =========================================
> MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21 (2017-10-14)
> 
> A <neume> element consists of one or more <nc> element(s).
> A <nc> (neume component) element is a single pitched event, although the exact pitch may not be known.
> 
> Attributes for <neume>:
> @significative letters
> @hispanicTick (type1|type2) ((further specifications required)
> 
> Attributes for <nc>:
> @pname
> @oct
> @intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <neume>) {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh = same or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))
> @s-shaped {n|e|s|w) (north, east, south, west; the direction of the initial long stroke, i.e., the standard letter S is “w”, its mirror shape is “e”, the letter turned 90-degrees on its side is “s”, and its mirror shape is “n”)
> @significative letters
> @curved {a|c} (anticlockwise, clockwise)
> @angled
> @liquescence
> @episema
> @len (s|l} (short, long)
> @tilt {n|ne|e|se|s|sw|w|ne} (north, northeast, etc.)
> @quilisma {2|3|4} (2, 3, or 4 curves)
> @con {g|l|e}  (gapped, looped, extended) (connection to the previous <nc> within the same <neume>)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig


From andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca  Sun Oct 15 11:04:44 2017
From: andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca (Andrew Hankinson)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 09:04:44 +0000
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] @quilisma, MEI neumes 0.21
In-Reply-To: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <00B87579-038B-4B11-AE70-8887C3D493A5@mail.mcgill.ca>

Attribute: @quilisma {2|3|4} (2, 3, or 4 curves)

Is this method of describing quilisma universal? I don't know if I could count the 'curves' in a Solesmes-printed quilisma, or would even describe them as curves... Again, I think the logical and visual qualities should be kept distinct. Something like:

@quilisma={true}
@quilisma.vis={2curves | 3curves | 4curves}



> On 15 Oct 2017, at 00:26, Ichiro Fujinaga, Prof. <ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca> wrote:
> 
> [This sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they appear to be. Learn about spoofing at http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSpoofing]
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> Subsequent to the Cantus Ultimus meeting, we had several discussions in Halifax. This resulted in the MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21.
> 
> The changes from Version 0.2 can be viewed here:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/14EVIGmBPdEtw7vXOPK8Uas7MG6WK6mxy_gQGSMpZH9A/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> I strongly suggest, for the ease of discussions online, that comments and questions on the Draft be restricted to one topic per email, e.g., one attribute at a time.
> 
> Ichiro
> 
> =========================================
> MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21 (2017-10-14)
> 
> A <neume> element consists of one or more <nc> element(s).
> A <nc> (neume component) element is a single pitched event, although the exact pitch may not be known.
> 
> Attributes for <neume>:
> @significative letters
> @hispanicTick (type1|type2) ((further specifications required)
> 
> Attributes for <nc>:
> @pname
> @oct
> @intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <neume>) {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh = same or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))
> @s-shaped {n|e|s|w) (north, east, south, west; the direction of the initial long stroke, i.e., the standard letter S is “w”, its mirror shape is “e”, the letter turned 90-degrees on its side is “s”, and its mirror shape is “n”)
> @significative letters
> @curved {a|c} (anticlockwise, clockwise)
> @angled
> @liquescence
> @episema
> @len (s|l} (short, long)
> @tilt {n|ne|e|se|s|sw|w|ne} (north, northeast, etc.)
> @quilisma {2|3|4} (2, 3, or 4 curves)
> @con {g|l|e}  (gapped, looped, extended) (connection to the previous <nc> within the same <neume>)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig


From andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca  Sun Oct 15 11:06:29 2017
From: andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca (Andrew Hankinson)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 09:06:29 +0000
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21
In-Reply-To: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <DF79E349-C7C0-4071-803A-309C1EAEE8F3@mail.mcgill.ca>

Attribute: @len (s|l} (short, long)

This should be @dur={short | long} to follow the established conventions of MEI.



> On 15 Oct 2017, at 00:26, Ichiro Fujinaga, Prof. <ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca> wrote:
> 
> [This sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they appear to be. Learn about spoofing at http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSpoofing]
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> Subsequent to the Cantus Ultimus meeting, we had several discussions in Halifax. This resulted in the MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21.
> 
> The changes from Version 0.2 can be viewed here:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/14EVIGmBPdEtw7vXOPK8Uas7MG6WK6mxy_gQGSMpZH9A/edit?usp=sharing
> 
> I strongly suggest, for the ease of discussions online, that comments and questions on the Draft be restricted to one topic per email, e.g., one attribute at a time.
> 
> Ichiro
> 
> =========================================
> MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21 (2017-10-14)
> 
> A <neume> element consists of one or more <nc> element(s).
> A <nc> (neume component) element is a single pitched event, although the exact pitch may not be known.
> 
> Attributes for <neume>:
> @significative letters
> @hispanicTick (type1|type2) ((further specifications required)
> 
> Attributes for <nc>:
> @pname
> @oct
> @intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <neume>) {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh = same or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))
> @s-shaped {n|e|s|w) (north, east, south, west; the direction of the initial long stroke, i.e., the standard letter S is “w”, its mirror shape is “e”, the letter turned 90-degrees on its side is “s”, and its mirror shape is “n”)
> @significative letters
> @curved {a|c} (anticlockwise, clockwise)
> @angled
> @liquescence
> @episema
> @len (s|l} (short, long)
> @tilt {n|ne|e|se|s|sw|w|ne} (north, northeast, etc.)
> @quilisma {2|3|4} (2, 3, or 4 curves)
> @con {g|l|e}  (gapped, looped, extended) (connection to the previous <nc> within the same <neume>)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig


From katehelsen at gmail.com  Sun Oct 15 13:33:18 2017
From: katehelsen at gmail.com (Kate Helsen)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 11:33:18 +0000
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21
In-Reply-To: <DF79E349-C7C0-4071-803A-309C1EAEE8F3@mail.mcgill.ca>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
 <DF79E349-C7C0-4071-803A-309C1EAEE8F3@mail.mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <CANrf7wbybT=_TQb2GsvKES5C5qy=X1UKLq1+jZ-EQ7TmLoH0PA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,
Should we equate duration with length (of a pen stroke of one nc)?
K.



On Sunday, October 15, 2017, Andrew Hankinson <
andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca> wrote:

> Attribute: @len (s|l} (short, long)
>
> This should be @dur={short | long} to follow the established conventions
> of MEI.
>
>
>
> > On 15 Oct 2017, at 00:26, Ichiro Fujinaga, Prof. <
> ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca> wrote:
> >
> > [This sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they
> appear to be. Learn about spoofing at http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSpoofing]
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > Subsequent to the Cantus Ultimus meeting, we had several discussions in
> Halifax. This resulted in the MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21.
> >
> > The changes from Version 0.2 can be viewed here:
> >
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/14EVIGmBPdEtw7vXOPK8Uas7MG6WK6mxy_gQGSMpZH9A/edit?usp=sharing
> >
> > I strongly suggest, for the ease of discussions online, that comments
> and questions on the Draft be restricted to one topic per email, e.g., one
> attribute at a time.
> >
> > Ichiro
> >
> > =========================================
> > MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21 (2017-10-14)
> >
> > A <neume> element consists of one or more <nc> element(s).
> > A <nc> (neume component) element is a single pitched event, although the
> exact pitch may not be known.
> >
> > Attributes for <neume>:
> > @significative letters
> > @hispanicTick (type1|type2) ((further specifications required)
> >
> > Attributes for <nc>:
> > @pname
> > @oct
> > @intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <neume>)
> {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh = same
> or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))
> > @s-shaped {n|e|s|w) (north, east, south, west; the direction of the
> initial long stroke, i.e., the standard letter S is “w”, its mirror shape
> is “e”, the letter turned 90-degrees on its side is “s”, and its mirror
> shape is “n”)
> > @significative letters
> > @curved {a|c} (anticlockwise, clockwise)
> > @angled
> > @liquescence
> > @episema
> > @len (s|l} (short, long)
> > @tilt {n|ne|e|se|s|sw|w|ne} (north, northeast, etc.)
> > @quilisma {2|3|4} (2, 3, or 4 curves)
> > @con {g|l|e}  (gapped, looped, extended) (connection to the previous
> <nc> within the same <neume>)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig
>
> _______________________________________________
> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig
>
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From katehelsen at gmail.com  Sun Oct 15 13:38:14 2017
From: katehelsen at gmail.com (Kate Helsen)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 11:38:14 +0000
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] @s-shaped, MEI 0.21
In-Reply-To: <028CAC9A-C7AB-4EC9-BD84-DB551D96F5F5@mail.mcgill.ca>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
 <028CAC9A-C7AB-4EC9-BD84-DB551D96F5F5@mail.mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <CANrf7waUEtzc37GHyhRnom9dhZUOZdubukCHQnk+45tFgyzMhQ@mail.gmail.com>

Re: n|e|s|w etc. as a value of @tilt for the S-shape, is there another way
of indicating whether the shape is oriented vertically (like a normal
looking S) or horizontally? Then we could look at describing the shape, in
those two orientations. (We had toyed with mirror-S shape, for example.)

Sorry if this is rehashing things, but when you write, "...encode the music
notation, not describe the shapes on a page", in cases like Old Hispanic
and Hartker neumes, I'm not entirely clear on the difference. I'm pretty
sure that difference is crucial, though.

Thanks,
K

On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 at 04:58 Andrew Hankinson <
andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca> wrote:

> Attribute: @s-shaped {n|e|s|w) (north, east, south, west; the direction of
> the initial long stroke, i.e., the standard letter S is “w”, its mirror
> shape is “e”, the letter turned 90-degrees on its side is “s”, and its
> mirror shape is “n”)
>
> (As a matter of style, MEI adopts a camel-case method for naming its
> attributes, so this would be @sShaped)
>
> This is problematic. If a line is written such that is not aligned
> perpendicular to the page edges, or it curves, or the page edges are not
> 90°) then from what baseline should the directional reference be?
>
> It is imperative to remember that this will be used to encode the music
> notation, not describe the shapes on a page.
>
> I would strongly suggest this be dropped, and another method of encoding
> the same information be developed.
>
>
> > On 15 Oct 2017, at 00:26, Ichiro Fujinaga, Prof. <
> ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca> wrote:
> >
> > [This sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they
> appear to be. Learn about spoofing at http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSpoofing]
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > Subsequent to the Cantus Ultimus meeting, we had several discussions in
> Halifax. This resulted in the MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21.
> >
> > The changes from Version 0.2 can be viewed here:
> >
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/14EVIGmBPdEtw7vXOPK8Uas7MG6WK6mxy_gQGSMpZH9A/edit?usp=sharing
> >
> > I strongly suggest, for the ease of discussions online, that comments
> and questions on the Draft be restricted to one topic per email, e.g., one
> attribute at a time.
> >
> > Ichiro
> >
> > =========================================
> > MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21 (2017-10-14)
> >
> > A <neume> element consists of one or more <nc> element(s).
> > A <nc> (neume component) element is a single pitched event, although the
> exact pitch may not be known.
> >
> > Attributes for <neume>:
> > @significative letters
> > @hispanicTick (type1|type2) ((further specifications required)
> >
> > Attributes for <nc>:
> > @pname
> > @oct
> > @intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <neume>)
> {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh = same
> or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))
> > @s-shaped {n|e|s|w) (north, east, south, west; the direction of the
> initial long stroke, i.e., the standard letter S is “w”, its mirror shape
> is “e”, the letter turned 90-degrees on its side is “s”, and its mirror
> shape is “n”)
> > @significative letters
> > @curved {a|c} (anticlockwise, clockwise)
> > @angled
> > @liquescence
> > @episema
> > @len (s|l} (short, long)
> > @tilt {n|ne|e|se|s|sw|w|ne} (north, northeast, etc.)
> > @quilisma {2|3|4} (2, 3, or 4 curves)
> > @con {g|l|e}  (gapped, looped, extended) (connection to the previous
> <nc> within the same <neume>)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig
>
> _______________________________________________
> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig
>
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From ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca  Sun Oct 15 15:51:58 2017
From: ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca (Ichiro Fujinaga, Prof.)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 13:51:58 +0000
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21
In-Reply-To: <81399215-FAAD-48FD-9ED9-725E6B98C6AC@mail.mcgill.ca>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
 <81399215-FAAD-48FD-9ED9-725E6B98C6AC@mail.mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <5B086D92-A2E1-4EA0-A7B6-A53E2E8CD4BF@mcgill.ca>

HI Andrew,

I’m sorry, that’s a typo.
It should have been <nc> and not <neume>, i.e.:

Attribute: @intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <nc>) {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh = same or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))

Thank you for catching that.

Ich

> On Oct 15, 2017, at 4:50 AM, Andrew Hankinson <andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca> wrote:
> 
> Attribute: @intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <neume>) {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh = same or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))
> 
> I'm not sure this should be relative to the previous neume, and not nc. If it's relative to the previous neume element, then it would only apply to the first nc in a neume, right? And then there is no way to describe the contour within the neume.
> 
> 
>> On 15 Oct 2017, at 00:26, Ichiro Fujinaga, Prof. <ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca> wrote:
>> 
>> [This sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they appear to be. Learn about spoofing at http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSpoofing]
>> 
>> Dear all,
>> 
>> Subsequent to the Cantus Ultimus meeting, we had several discussions in Halifax. This resulted in the MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21.
>> 
>> The changes from Version 0.2 can be viewed here:
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/14EVIGmBPdEtw7vXOPK8Uas7MG6WK6mxy_gQGSMpZH9A/edit?usp=sharing
>> 
>> I strongly suggest, for the ease of discussions online, that comments and questions on the Draft be restricted to one topic per email, e.g., one attribute at a time.
>> 
>> Ichiro
>> 
>> =========================================
>> MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21 (2017-10-14)
>> 
>> A <neume> element consists of one or more <nc> element(s).
>> A <nc> (neume component) element is a single pitched event, although the exact pitch may not be known.
>> 
>> Attributes for <neume>:
>> @significative letters
>> @hispanicTick (type1|type2) ((further specifications required)
>> 
>> Attributes for <nc>:
>> @pname
>> @oct
>> @intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <neume>) {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh = same or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))
>> @s-shaped {n|e|s|w) (north, east, south, west; the direction of the initial long stroke, i.e., the standard letter S is “w”, its mirror shape is “e”, the letter turned 90-degrees on its side is “s”, and its mirror shape is “n”)
>> @significative letters
>> @curved {a|c} (anticlockwise, clockwise)
>> @angled
>> @liquescence
>> @episema
>> @len (s|l} (short, long)
>> @tilt {n|ne|e|se|s|sw|w|ne} (north, northeast, etc.)
>> @quilisma {2|3|4} (2, 3, or 4 curves)
>> @con {g|l|e}  (gapped, looped, extended) (connection to the previous <nc> within the same <neume>)
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
>> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
>> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig
> 


From elsa at campus.ul.pt  Sun Oct 15 13:57:47 2017
From: elsa at campus.ul.pt (Elsa De Luca)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 12:57:47 +0100
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21
In-Reply-To: <CANrf7wbybT=_TQb2GsvKES5C5qy=X1UKLq1+jZ-EQ7TmLoH0PA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
 <DF79E349-C7C0-4071-803A-309C1EAEE8F3@mail.mcgill.ca>
 <CANrf7wbybT=_TQb2GsvKES5C5qy=X1UKLq1+jZ-EQ7TmLoH0PA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE93WZVcZ=bFhsOLAfU4MKsS_DObSTEfHhEGihegL7f16OPXwQ@mail.gmail.com>

I would prefer not to equate the duration with length of the pen-stroke.

As it was pointed out during our conversations in Halifax, scholars have
worked out that the length of the pen-stroke was used to convey music
information related to intervals. Please have a look at the clivis
(examples 1 and 2) on p. 17 in E. Cardine, Semiologia Gregoriana
(attached). The clivis with a
longer pen-stroke (n. 2) signals a wider interval.

Regarding Old Hispanic notation we cannot confirm that the length of the
pen-stroke was used to convey the same kind of musical information (because
we do not have the safe blanket of more modern versions of OH melodies
written with a more diastematic notational system that can be used for
comparison of the early neumes). However, research on OH scores hints that
the length of the pen-stroke was purposefully used to convey some sort of
musical information also in this repertory - even if we cannot pin down
exactly what musical value the length of the pen-stroke was capturing*.*

I hope this helps


Elsa De Luca <http://cesem.fcsh.unl.pt/en/pessoa/elsa-de-luca/>

CESEM (Centre for the Study of the Sociology and Aesthetic of Music)

Faculdade de Ciências Sociais e Humanas – NOVA FCSH

Av. de Berna, 26 C, 1069-061

Lisbon, Portugal

On 15 October 2017 at 12:33, Kate Helsen <katehelsen at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
> Should we equate duration with length (of a pen stroke of one nc)?
> K.
>
>
>
> On Sunday, October 15, 2017, Andrew Hankinson <
> andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca> wrote:
>
>> Attribute: @len (s|l} (short, long)
>>
>> This should be @dur={short | long} to follow the established conventions
>> of MEI.
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 15 Oct 2017, at 00:26, Ichiro Fujinaga, Prof. <
>> ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca> wrote:
>> >
>> > [This sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they
>> appear to be. Learn about spoofing at http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSpoofing]
>> >
>> > Dear all,
>> >
>> > Subsequent to the Cantus Ultimus meeting, we had several discussions in
>> Halifax. This resulted in the MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21.
>> >
>> > The changes from Version 0.2 can be viewed here:
>> > https://docs.google.com/document/d/14EVIGmBPdEtw7vXOPK8Uas7MG6WK6
>> mxy_gQGSMpZH9A/edit?usp=sharing
>> >
>> > I strongly suggest, for the ease of discussions online, that comments
>> and questions on the Draft be restricted to one topic per email, e.g., one
>> attribute at a time.
>> >
>> > Ichiro
>> >
>> > =========================================
>> > MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21 (2017-10-14)
>> >
>> > A <neume> element consists of one or more <nc> element(s).
>> > A <nc> (neume component) element is a single pitched event, although
>> the exact pitch may not be known.
>> >
>> > Attributes for <neume>:
>> > @significative letters
>> > @hispanicTick (type1|type2) ((further specifications required)
>> >
>> > Attributes for <nc>:
>> > @pname
>> > @oct
>> > @intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <neume>)
>> {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh = same
>> or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))
>> > @s-shaped {n|e|s|w) (north, east, south, west; the direction of the
>> initial long stroke, i.e., the standard letter S is “w”, its mirror shape
>> is “e”, the letter turned 90-degrees on its side is “s”, and its mirror
>> shape is “n”)
>> > @significative letters
>> > @curved {a|c} (anticlockwise, clockwise)
>> > @angled
>> > @liquescence
>> > @episema
>> > @len (s|l} (short, long)
>> > @tilt {n|ne|e|se|s|sw|w|ne} (north, northeast, etc.)
>> > @quilisma {2|3|4} (2, 3, or 4 curves)
>> > @con {g|l|e}  (gapped, looped, extended) (connection to the previous
>> <nc> within the same <neume>)
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > mei-neumes-ig mailing list
>> > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
>> > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
>> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
>> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig
>
>
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From elsa at campus.ul.pt  Sun Oct 15 21:50:32 2017
From: elsa at campus.ul.pt (Elsa De Luca)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 20:50:32 +0100
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] @tilt, MEI neumes 0.21
In-Reply-To: <97AE55F2-ADF8-45F0-89DE-6E9AC28D02CB@mail.mcgill.ca>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
 <97AE55F2-ADF8-45F0-89DE-6E9AC28D02CB@mail.mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <CAE93WZUsuHs_xr7-v-jWSF4dRC9P21b5_-5R=LW6FKGE9c4vOw@mail.gmail.com>

Comment below

Andrew's Quote:

* This is problematic. If a line is written such that is not aligned
perpendicular to the page edges, or it curves, or the page edges are not
90°) then from what baseline should the directional reference be?**whatever
the ductus/alignment of the notation is,  **always **use **the page
baseline as reference. any straight line, either vertical or horizontal,
would be encoded as n/s or e/w. All the other intermediate degrees of
inclination would be encoded as ne, se, sw, nw (BTW there is a typo in the
module description, below).*


* It is imperative to remember that this will be used to encode the music
notation, not describe the shapes on a page.sure. however, the inclination
of the pen-stroke is a graphical feature used to represent melodic
information **in neumatic notations. in other words, *information on the
melodic contour was conveyed by the scribes according to the directionality
of the pen-stroke on the page. hence, the encoding of neumes cannot avoid
to *take into account how the shapes look like on the page. *

*Of course there were cases where scribes used different degrees of
inclination of the pen-strokes without the intention to convey exact
melodic information but we do not want to decide a priori which scribe was
randomly using the inclination of the pen-stroke. In any case, it is
important to reiterate that the inclination of the pen-stroke represents
relevant musical information which needs to be captured in the encoding.*

*I would strongly suggest this be dropped, and another method of encoding
the same information be developed.*
Sorry, but ​I really like this system. I have attempted to encode some OH
neumes and this system works beautifully. I find it very straightforward,
easy to be applied and, last but not least,  it mirrors the shape of the
neumes on the page with an accurate degree of approximation.

​Of course this is just my personal take, and if someone else has a better
suggestion on how to encode the inclination of the pen-stroke, please do
let us know!

All the best,
​
​


Elsa De Luca <http://cesem.fcsh.unl.pt/en/pessoa/elsa-de-luca/>

CESEM (Centre for the Study of the Sociology and Aesthetic of Music)

Faculdade de Ciências Sociais e Humanas – NOVA FCSH

Av. de Berna, 26 C, 1069-061

Lisbon, Portugal

On 15 October 2017 at 09:59, Andrew Hankinson <andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.
ca> wrote:

> Attribute: @tilt {n|ne|e|se|s|sw|w|ne} (north, northeast, etc.)
>
> My previous message about directionality in MEI applies here too.
>
> > On 15 Oct 2017, at 00:26, Ichiro Fujinaga, Prof. <
> ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca> wrote:
> >
> > [This sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they
> appear to be. Learn about spoofing at http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSpoofing]
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > Subsequent to the Cantus Ultimus meeting, we had several discussions in
> Halifax. This resulted in the MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21.
> >
> > The changes from Version 0.2 can be viewed here:
> > https://docs.google.com/document/d/14EVIGmBPdEtw7vXOPK8Uas7M
> G6WK6mxy_gQGSMpZH9A/edit?usp=sharing
> >
> > I strongly suggest, for the ease of discussions online, that comments
> and questions on the Draft be restricted to one topic per email, e.g., one
> attribute at a time.
> >
> > Ichiro
> >
> > =========================================
> > MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21 (2017-10-14)
> >
> > A <neume> element consists of one or more <nc> element(s).
> > A <nc> (neume component) element is a single pitched event, although the
> exact pitch may not be known.
> >
> > Attributes for <neume>:
> > @significative letters
> > @hispanicTick (type1|type2) ((further specifications required)
> >
> > Attributes for <nc>:
> > @pname
> > @oct
> > @intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <neume>)
> {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh = same
> or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))
> > @s-shaped {n|e|s|w) (north, east, south, west; the direction of the
> initial long stroke, i.e., the standard letter S is “w”, its mirror shape
> is “e”, the letter turned 90-degrees on its side is “s”, and its mirror
> shape is “n”)
> > @significative letters
> > @curved {a|c} (anticlockwise, clockwise)
> > @angled
> > @liquescence
> > @episema
> > @len (s|l} (short, long)
> > @tilt {n|ne|e|se|s|sw|w|ne} (north, northeast, etc.)
> > @quilisma {2|3|4} (2, 3, or 4 curves)
> > @con {g|l|e}  (gapped, looped, extended) (connection to the previous
> <nc> within the same <neume>)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig
>
> _______________________________________________
> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig
>
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From ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca  Sun Oct 15 22:20:04 2017
From: ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca (Ichiro Fujinaga, Prof.)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 20:20:04 +0000
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] @tilt, MEI neumes 0.21
In-Reply-To: <CAE93WZUsuHs_xr7-v-jWSF4dRC9P21b5_-5R=LW6FKGE9c4vOw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
 <97AE55F2-ADF8-45F0-89DE-6E9AC28D02CB@mail.mcgill.ca>
 <CAE93WZUsuHs_xr7-v-jWSF4dRC9P21b5_-5R=LW6FKGE9c4vOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <795FB3A5-68DB-419A-947A-DC657DAB1A09@mcgill.ca>


> On Oct 15, 2017, at 3:50 PM, Elsa De Luca <elsa at campus.ul.pt> wrote:
> 
> Comment below
> 
> Andrew's Quote:
>  This is problematic. If a line is written such that is not aligned perpendicular to the page edges, or it curves, or the page edges are not 90°) then from what baseline should the directional reference be?
> whatever the ductus/alignment of the notation is,  always use the page baseline as reference. any straight line, either vertical or horizontal, would be encoded as n/s or e/w. All the other intermediate degrees of inclination would be encoded as ne, se, sw, nw (BTW there is a typo in the module description, below).
>  
Fixed (on the Google Docs). 
Thank you.

Ichiro

> It is imperative to remember that this will be used to encode the music notation, not describe the shapes on a page.
> sure. however, the inclination of the pen-stroke is a graphical feature used to represent melodic information in neumatic notations. in other words, information on the melodic contour was conveyed by the scribes according to the directionality of the pen-stroke on the page. hence, the encoding of neumes cannot avoid to take into account how the shapes look like on the page. 
> 
> Of course there were cases where scribes used different degrees of inclination of the pen-strokes without the intention to convey exact melodic information but we do not want to decide a priori which scribe was randomly using the inclination of the pen-stroke. In any case, it is important to reiterate that the inclination of the pen-stroke represents relevant musical information which needs to be captured in the encoding.
> 
> I would strongly suggest this be dropped, and another method of encoding the same information be developed.
> Sorry, but ​I really like this system. I have attempted to encode some OH neumes and this system works beautifully. I find it very straightforward, easy to be applied and, last but not least,  it mirrors the shape of the neumes on the page with an accurate degree of approximation.
> 
> ​Of course this is just my personal take, and if someone else has a better suggestion on how to encode the inclination of the pen-stroke, please do let us know! 
> 
> All the best, ​​
> 
> Elsa De Luca
> CESEM (Centre for the Study of the Sociology and Aesthetic of Music)
> Faculdade de Ciências Sociais e Humanas – NOVA FCSH
> Av. de Berna, 26 C, 1069-061 
> Lisbon, Portugal
> 
> On 15 October 2017 at 09:59, Andrew Hankinson <andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca> wrote:
> Attribute: @tilt {n|ne|e|se|s|sw|w|ne} (north, northeast, etc.)
> 
> My previous message about directionality in MEI applies here too.
> 
> > On 15 Oct 2017, at 00:26, Ichiro Fujinaga, Prof. <ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca> wrote:
> >
> > [This sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they appear to be. Learn about spoofing at http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSpoofing]
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > Subsequent to the Cantus Ultimus meeting, we had several discussions in Halifax. This resulted in the MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21.
> >
> > The changes from Version 0.2 can be viewed here:
> > https://docs.google.com/document/d/14EVIGmBPdEtw7vXOPK8Uas7MG6WK6mxy_gQGSMpZH9A/edit?usp=sharing
> >
> > I strongly suggest, for the ease of discussions online, that comments and questions on the Draft be restricted to one topic per email, e.g., one attribute at a time.
> >
> > Ichiro
> >
> > =========================================
> > MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21 (2017-10-14)
> >
> > A <neume> element consists of one or more <nc> element(s).
> > A <nc> (neume component) element is a single pitched event, although the exact pitch may not be known.
> >
> > Attributes for <neume>:
> > @significative letters
> > @hispanicTick (type1|type2) ((further specifications required)
> >
> > Attributes for <nc>:
> > @pname
> > @oct
> > @intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <neume>) {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh = same or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))
> > @s-shaped {n|e|s|w) (north, east, south, west; the direction of the initial long stroke, i.e., the standard letter S is “w”, its mirror shape is “e”, the letter turned 90-degrees on its side is “s”, and its mirror shape is “n”)
> > @significative letters
> > @curved {a|c} (anticlockwise, clockwise)
> > @angled
> > @liquescence
> > @episema
> > @len (s|l} (short, long)
> > @tilt {n|ne|e|se|s|sw|w|ne} (north, northeast, etc.)
> > @quilisma {2|3|4} (2, 3, or 4 curves)
> > @con {g|l|e}  (gapped, looped, extended) (connection to the previous <nc> within the same <neume>)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig
> 


From Jason.Stoessel at une.edu.au  Mon Oct 16 00:42:00 2017
From: Jason.Stoessel at une.edu.au (Jason Stoessel)
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 22:42:00 +0000
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] [SPAM?]  Re:  MEI Neumes Module Draft,
 Version 0.21
In-Reply-To: <81399215-FAAD-48FD-9ED9-725E6B98C6AC@mail.mcgill.ca>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
 <81399215-FAAD-48FD-9ED9-725E6B98C6AC@mail.mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <1F13C891-784A-47A8-8D12-D791CCCE2DE1@une.edu.au>

Hi all

Some excellent ideas circulating here, with thanks to those leading this effort. One question regarding @intm nomenclature came to mind, however. For me, what it seems to describe is not a relative melodic interval per se but melodic contour (or melodic motion) (an extension of Parsons code, as such, if this is not stating the obvious). So would it be more appropriate to refer instead to @melcont?

Jason

> On 15 Oct 2017, at 7:50 PM, Andrew Hankinson <andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca> wrote:
> 
> Attribute: @intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <neume>) {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh = same or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))
> 
> I'm not sure this should be relative to the previous neume, and not nc. If it's relative to the previous neume element, then it would only apply to the first nc in a neume, right? And then there is no way to describe the contour within the neume.
> 
> 
>> On 15 Oct 2017, at 00:26, Ichiro Fujinaga, Prof. <ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca> wrote:
>> 
>> [This sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they appear to be. Learn about spoofing at http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSpoofing]
>> 
>> Dear all,
>> 
>> Subsequent to the Cantus Ultimus meeting, we had several discussions in Halifax. This resulted in the MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21.
>> 
>> The changes from Version 0.2 can be viewed here:
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/14EVIGmBPdEtw7vXOPK8Uas7MG6WK6mxy_gQGSMpZH9A/edit?usp=sharing
>> 
>> I strongly suggest, for the ease of discussions online, that comments and questions on the Draft be restricted to one topic per email, e.g., one attribute at a time.
>> 
>> Ichiro
>> 
>> =========================================
>> MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21 (2017-10-14)
>> 
>> A <neume> element consists of one or more <nc> element(s).
>> A <nc> (neume component) element is a single pitched event, although the exact pitch may not be known.
>> 
>> Attributes for <neume>:
>> @significative letters
>> @hispanicTick (type1|type2) ((further specifications required)
>> 
>> Attributes for <nc>:
>> @pname
>> @oct
>> @intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <neume>) {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh = same or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))
>> @s-shaped {n|e|s|w) (north, east, south, west; the direction of the initial long stroke, i.e., the standard letter S is “w”, its mirror shape is “e”, the letter turned 90-degrees on its side is “s”, and its mirror shape is “n”)
>> @significative letters
>> @curved {a|c} (anticlockwise, clockwise)
>> @angled
>> @liquescence
>> @episema
>> @len (s|l} (short, long)
>> @tilt {n|ne|e|se|s|sw|w|ne} (north, northeast, etc.)
>> @quilisma {2|3|4} (2, 3, or 4 curves)
>> @con {g|l|e}  (gapped, looped, extended) (connection to the previous <nc> within the same <neume>)
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
>> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
>> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig

Dr Jason Stoessel, BMus/BA, BA Hons, PhD
Coordinator of Music Honours and HDR
Coordinator of Research Seminar Series
School of Arts
University of New England
ARMIDALE NSW 2351
AUSTRALIA
jason.stoessel at une.edu.au
Skype ID: jjstoessel
FaceTime: jason.stoessel at gmail.com
une-au.academia.edu/JasonStoessel
--
Chief Investigator, ARC Discovery Project (DP150102135)
“Canonic techniques and musical change, c.1330–c.1530"
--
CRICOS Provider Number: 00003G







From thomas.weber at notengrafik.com  Mon Oct 16 11:05:22 2017
From: thomas.weber at notengrafik.com (Thomas Weber)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 11:05:22 +0200
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] oriscus, Draft 0.21
In-Reply-To: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <a3b95400-6bb3-c13c-6bbc-d7c496170b37@notengrafik.com>

Thanks, Ich, for keeping up the momentum.

One question concerning the oriscus:  What was the reason for dropping it?



-- 

Notengrafik Berlin GmbH
HRB 15007

UstID: DE 289234097
Geschäftsführer:
Thomas Weber und Werner J. Wolff

fon: +49 30 220661685

Leuschnerdamm 13
10999 Berlin

notengrafik.com



From thomas.weber at notengrafik.com  Mon Oct 16 11:05:27 2017
From: thomas.weber at notengrafik.com (Thomas Weber)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 11:05:27 +0200
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] [SPAM?] Re: MEI Neumes Module Draft,
 Version 0.21
In-Reply-To: <1F13C891-784A-47A8-8D12-D791CCCE2DE1@une.edu.au>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
 <1F13C891-784A-47A8-8D12-D791CCCE2DE1@une.edu.au>
Message-ID: <c36bb900-31bd-72a1-b8d7-80453b40885c@notengrafik.com>

Am 16.10.2017 um 00:42 schrieb Jason Stoessel:
> One question regarding @intm nomenclature came to mind, however. For me, what it seems to describe is not a relative melodic interval per se but melodic contour (or melodic motion) (an extension of Parsons code, as such, if this is not stating the obvious). So would it be more appropriate to refer instead to @melcont?
>


@intm is an already established attribute that can be used both for relative as well as absolute descriptions.

http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/data.INTERVAL.MELODIC/

One thing I'd find more logical, though, would be if the values "sh" and "sl" would be replaced with "su" and "sd" because we have the pre-existing "u", "d" and "s".


-- 

Notengrafik Berlin GmbH
HRB 15007

UstID: DE 289234097
Geschäftsführer:
Thomas Weber und Werner J. Wolff

fon: +49 30 220661685

Leuschnerdamm 13
10999 Berlin

notengrafik.com



From thomas.weber at notengrafik.com  Mon Oct 16 11:17:18 2017
From: thomas.weber at notengrafik.com (Thomas Weber)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 11:17:18 +0200
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] @quilisma, MEI neumes 0.21
In-Reply-To: <00B87579-038B-4B11-AE70-8887C3D493A5@mail.mcgill.ca>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
 <00B87579-038B-4B11-AE70-8887C3D493A5@mail.mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <26f0dffc-0480-5f25-d0bc-2c55299a35fa@notengrafik.com>

Am 15.10.2017 um 11:04 schrieb Andrew Hankinson:
> Attribute: @quilisma {2|3|4} (2, 3, or 4 curves)
>
> Is this method of describing quilisma universal? I don't know if I could count the 'curves' in a Solesmes-printed quilisma, or would even describe them as curves... Again, I think the logical and visual qualities should be kept distinct. Something like:
>
> @quilisma={true}
> @quilisma.vis={2curves | 3curves | 4curves}


 From the perspective of Corpus monodicum data, that's much more fitting.  However, I find "vis" a little too unspecific as the number of curves is only one property of the visual domain - there *might* be others.  I think it should either be @quilisma.curves or (even cleaner in my opinion) we avoid the dot notation and make <quilisma> an element.

-- 

Notengrafik Berlin GmbH
HRB 15007

UstID: DE 289234097
Geschäftsführer:
Thomas Weber und Werner J. Wolff

fon: +49 30 220661685

Leuschnerdamm 13
10999 Berlin

notengrafik.com



From pdr4h at virginia.edu  Mon Oct 16 17:40:48 2017
From: pdr4h at virginia.edu (Roland, Perry (pdr4h))
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 15:40:48 +0000
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] @s-shaped, MEI 0.21
In-Reply-To: <028CAC9A-C7AB-4EC9-BD84-DB551D96F5F5@mail.mcgill.ca>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
 <028CAC9A-C7AB-4EC9-BD84-DB551D96F5F5@mail.mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <CY1PR13MB01277137ABBDCD49FA1E44699F4F0@CY1PR13MB0127.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>


Camel-case is used for element names.  Attributes use lower-case names.

--
p.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mei-neumes-ig [mailto:mei-neumes-ig-
> bounces+pdr4h=eservices.virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de] On Behalf Of Andrew
> Hankinson
> Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2017 4:58 AM
> To: Ichiro Fujinaga, Prof. <ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca>; Neumes Interest Group of the
> Music Encoding Initiative <mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de>
> Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] @s-shaped, MEI 0.21
> 
> Attribute: @s-shaped {n|e|s|w) (north, east, south, west; the direction of the initial long
> stroke, i.e., the standard letter S is “w”, its mirror shape is “e”, the letter turned 90-degrees
> on its side is “s”, and its mirror shape is “n”)
> 
> (As a matter of style, MEI adopts a camel-case method for naming its attributes, so this
> would be @sShaped)
> 
> This is problematic. If a line is written such that is not aligned perpendicular to the page
> edges, or it curves, or the page edges are not 90°) then from what baseline should the
> directional reference be?
> 
> It is imperative to remember that this will be used to encode the music notation, not
> describe the shapes on a page.
> 
> I would strongly suggest this be dropped, and another method of encoding the same
> information be developed.
> 
> 
> > On 15 Oct 2017, at 00:26, Ichiro Fujinaga, Prof. <ichiro.fujinaga at mcgill.ca> wrote:
> >
> > [This sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they
> > appear to be. Learn about spoofing at
> > http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSpoofing]
> >
> > Dear all,
> >
> > Subsequent to the Cantus Ultimus meeting, we had several discussions in Halifax. This
> resulted in the MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21.
> >
> > The changes from Version 0.2 can be viewed here:
> > https://docs.google.com/document/d/14EVIGmBPdEtw7vXOPK8Uas7MG6WK6mxy_g
> > QGSMpZH9A/edit?usp=sharing
> >
> > I strongly suggest, for the ease of discussions online, that comments and questions on
> the Draft be restricted to one topic per email, e.g., one attribute at a time.
> >
> > Ichiro
> >
> > =========================================
> > MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21 (2017-10-14)
> >
> > A <neume> element consists of one or more <nc> element(s).
> > A <nc> (neume component) element is a single pitched event, although the exact pitch
> may not be known.
> >
> > Attributes for <neume>:
> > @significative letters
> > @hispanicTick (type1|type2) ((further specifications required)
> >
> > Attributes for <nc>:
> > @pname
> > @oct
> > @intm (interval melodic; relative to the previous <neume>)
> > {u|d|s|n|sh|sl} (u = up, d = down, s = same, n = neutral/unknown, sh =
> > same or higher (but not lower), sl = same or lower (but not higher))
> > @s-shaped {n|e|s|w) (north, east, south, west; the direction of the
> > initial long stroke, i.e., the standard letter S is “w”, its mirror
> > shape is “e”, the letter turned 90-degrees on its side is “s”, and its
> > mirror shape is “n”) @significative letters @curved {a|c}
> > (anticlockwise, clockwise) @angled @liquescence @episema @len (s|l}
> > (short, long) @tilt {n|ne|e|se|s|sw|w|ne} (north, northeast, etc.)
> > @quilisma {2|3|4} (2, 3, or 4 curves) @con {g|l|e}  (gapped, looped,
> > extended) (connection to the previous <nc> within the same <neume>)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig

From pdr4h at virginia.edu  Mon Oct 16 17:42:35 2017
From: pdr4h at virginia.edu (Roland, Perry (pdr4h))
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 15:42:35 +0000
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] [SPAM?] Re: MEI Neumes Module Draft,
 Version 0.21
In-Reply-To: <c36bb900-31bd-72a1-b8d7-80453b40885c@notengrafik.com>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
 <1F13C891-784A-47A8-8D12-D791CCCE2DE1@une.edu.au>
 <c36bb900-31bd-72a1-b8d7-80453b40885c@notengrafik.com>
Message-ID: <CY1PR13MB0127BE8EABE46B047AC295F19F4F0@CY1PR13MB0127.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>


I agree.  There's no need to change the name of the @intm attribute.  And "sl" and "sh" should be "sd" and "su".

--
p.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mei-neumes-ig [mailto:mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] On Behalf
> Of Thomas Weber
> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 5:05 AM
> To: Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative <mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-
> paderborn.de>; Jason Stoessel <Jason.Stoessel at une.edu.au>
> Cc: ngb at notengrafik.com
> Subject: Re: [mei-neumes-ig] [SPAM?] Re: MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21
> 
> Am 16.10.2017 um 00:42 schrieb Jason Stoessel:
> > One question regarding @intm nomenclature came to mind, however. For me, what it
> seems to describe is not a relative melodic interval per se but melodic contour (or melodic
> motion) (an extension of Parsons code, as such, if this is not stating the obvious). So would
> it be more appropriate to refer instead to @melcont?
> >
> 
> 
> @intm is an already established attribute that can be used both for relative as well as
> absolute descriptions.
> 
> http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/data.INTERVAL.MELODIC/
> 
> One thing I'd find more logical, though, would be if the values "sh" and "sl" would be
> replaced with "su" and "sd" because we have the pre-existing "u", "d" and "s".
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Notengrafik Berlin GmbH
> HRB 15007
> 
> UstID: DE 289234097
> Geschäftsführer:
> Thomas Weber und Werner J. Wolff
> 
> fon: +49 30 220661685
> 
> Leuschnerdamm 13
> 10999 Berlin
> 
> notengrafik.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig

From elsa at campus.ul.pt  Mon Oct 16 20:08:59 2017
From: elsa at campus.ul.pt (Elsa De Luca)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 19:08:59 +0100
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] oriscus, Draft 0.21
In-Reply-To: <a3b95400-6bb3-c13c-6bbc-d7c496170b37@notengrafik.com>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
 <a3b95400-6bb3-c13c-6bbc-d7c496170b37@notengrafik.com>
Message-ID: <CAE93WZU6Zgp307FtCN2KP2RrBnxoBE9SYfn-POWHJLnAZ_8POA@mail.gmail.com>

The oriscus was not entirely dropped. We opted to encode oriscus neumes  as
S-shapes, which represent a category of ornamental neumes.



Elsa De Luca <http://cesem.fcsh.unl.pt/en/pessoa/elsa-de-luca/>

CESEM (Centre for the Study of the Sociology and Aesthetic of Music)

Faculdade de Ciências Sociais e Humanas – NOVA FCSH

Av. de Berna, 26 C, 1069-061

Lisbon, Portugal

On 16 October 2017 at 10:05, Thomas Weber <thomas.weber at notengrafik.com>
wrote:

> Thanks, Ich, for keeping up the momentum.
>
> One question concerning the oriscus:  What was the reason for dropping it?
>
>
>
> --
>
> Notengrafik Berlin GmbH
> HRB 15007
>
> UstID: DE 289234097
> Geschäftsführer:
> Thomas Weber und Werner J. Wolff
>
> fon: +49 30 220661685
>
> Leuschnerdamm 13
> 10999 Berlin
>
> notengrafik.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig
>
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From pdr4h at virginia.edu  Mon Oct 16 20:51:41 2017
From: pdr4h at virginia.edu (Roland, Perry (pdr4h))
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 18:51:41 +0000
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21
In-Reply-To: <5C6A0ED4-C703-4BF6-B14E-E65879D4A4EC@mail.mcgill.ca>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
 <5C6A0ED4-C703-4BF6-B14E-E65879D4A4EC@mail.mcgill.ca>
Message-ID: <CY1PR13MB012788650DD4FC2E9F6DAE3E9F4F0@CY1PR13MB0127.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>


As Andrew has reported, he and I had some discussion about neumes in C'ville recently.  I'd like to provide an overview of our plan using a brief, nonsense example --

<syllable>
  <neume type="pes">
    <ncGrp xml:id="n01">
      <nc xml:id="n02" con="g" angled="true" curved="a" diagonalright="d" episema="true"
        extended="true" flat="true" jagged="true" liquescent="true" long="true" oriscus="c"
        quilisma="2" sigletters="true" wavy="true"/>
      <nc xml:id="n03" con="l" pname="g" oct="4"/>
      <ncGrp/>
    </ncGrp>
    <nc xml:id="n04"/>
  </neume>
  <connect startid="#n02" endid="#n03" con="g"/>
  <connect startid="#n03" endid="#n04" con="l"/>
  <ncGrp/>
</syllable>

1. a <syllable> may contain <neume> or <connect> elements.  BTW, the name "connect" is a placeholder, it's not carved in stone.  <neumeCon>, <ncCon>, etc. are possibilities, but just don't have the right "oomph".  Suggestions gratefully accepted.  Names that are less generic and more historically appropriate would be great.

2. a <neume> may contain <nc> (neume component) or <ncGrp> (neume component group) elements.  The <neume> element carries visual information and <nc> carries both visual and pitch data.

3. <ncGrp> provides a way to assign a name and attributes to a collection of neume components.  It doesn't appear to be necessary at the moment, but adding it seems like a good future-proofing move.

4.  @con is provided on <nc> to encode the connection between the component bearing the attribute and *the next component*.  This is a reversal of the prior approach.  For processing purposes, it's better to know that the current element is connected to the next, rather than the other way around.  In CMN, we mark ties the same way; that is, the first note of a tie carries the @tie attribute.

5. In addition to @con, <connect> is provided for those situations where connections may "cut across" <neume>, <ncGrp>, or <nc> hierarchies.  It's analogous to the <tie> element in CMN in that it provides a point of attachment for attributes that describe the connection in more detail than can be accomplished using @con.

6. <nc> can have a large number of attributes.  The number is not important, but the separation of attributes into those that provide semantic information and those that provide visual information is very important.  That's what provides the ability to "switch off" attributes that the encoder may not care about.  I realize this separation is difficult to achieve, but I'd encourage the group to look for similarities across the various styles of notation as indicators of semantics.  Also, semantics usually stick close to "is-a" or "has-a" relationships.  If a neume "is a" or "has a" something, then that something is likely to be of semantic value.  Attributes like this tend to have Boolean values or values from a closed list.  The presence of (or the lack of) such an attribute can be semantic too.  For instance, if a component is / has an episema, then that's semantic info, irrespective of what the episema looks like or what the performance implications of the episema are.  In the example above, @sigletters marks the presence of significative letters without saying what those letters are, where they are, what color they are, etc.

7. Speaking of visual characteristics, we created an att.paleography class containing the visual attributes of <nc>, which can also be applied to <neume> and <ncGrp> if the group decides that's necessary.  This attribute class is just a suggested starting point.  If necessary, it can be further divided into stylistic groups of attributes.  But this work can't be done (or at least it's significantly more difficult) without first agreeing on the semantic attributes.

8. It's important not to rely too greatly on attributes to encode interpretation.  We already have ways of handling that, using <app> or <choice>, for instance.  For classification, we provide @type and @class for ad hoc and formal ontologies, respectively.  In the proposed ODD, @type on <neume> and <ncGrp> uses a semi-open list of the more-or-less standard names of neumes for those who want this feature.  This approach can be extended to <nc> if necessary.

I've attached the ODD.  Please let me know if you have questions.

--
p.

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From pdr4h at virginia.edu  Mon Oct 16 20:57:24 2017
From: pdr4h at virginia.edu (Roland, Perry (pdr4h))
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 18:57:24 +0000
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] oriscus, Draft 0.21
In-Reply-To: <CAE93WZU6Zgp307FtCN2KP2RrBnxoBE9SYfn-POWHJLnAZ_8POA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
 <a3b95400-6bb3-c13c-6bbc-d7c496170b37@notengrafik.com>
 <CAE93WZU6Zgp307FtCN2KP2RrBnxoBE9SYfn-POWHJLnAZ_8POA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CY1PR13MB012732D29AE56B26BF92D50C9F4F0@CY1PR13MB0127.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>


Encoding shape as a substitute for semantics is not good practice.  It would be better to explicitly record the fact that a neume is an oriscus using a Boolean attribute and its visual qualities and its participation in an “ornamental neume” class separately.

--
p.

From: mei-neumes-ig [mailto:mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] On Behalf Of Elsa De Luca
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 2:09 PM
To: Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative <mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de>
Cc: ngb at notengrafik.com
Subject: Re: [mei-neumes-ig] oriscus, Draft 0.21

The oriscus was not entirely dropped. We opted to encode oriscus neumes  as S-shapes, which represent a category of ornamental neumes.




Elsa De Luca<http://cesem.fcsh.unl.pt/en/pessoa/elsa-de-luca/>

CESEM (Centre for the Study of the Sociology and Aesthetic of Music)

Faculdade de Ciências Sociais e Humanas – NOVA FCSH

Av. de Berna, 26 C, 1069-061

Lisbon, Portugal

On 16 October 2017 at 10:05, Thomas Weber <thomas.weber at notengrafik.com<mailto:thomas.weber at notengrafik.com>> wrote:
Thanks, Ich, for keeping up the momentum.

One question concerning the oriscus:  What was the reason for dropping it?



--

Notengrafik Berlin GmbH
HRB 15007

UstID: DE 289234097
Geschäftsführer:
Thomas Weber und Werner J. Wolff

fon: +49 30 220661685

Leuschnerdamm 13
10999 Berlin

notengrafik.com<http://notengrafik.com>


_______________________________________________
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From Jason.Stoessel at une.edu.au  Tue Oct 17 00:08:56 2017
From: Jason.Stoessel at une.edu.au (Jason Stoessel)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2017 22:08:56 +0000
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] [SPAM?] Re: MEI Neumes Module Draft,
 Version 0.21
In-Reply-To: <CY1PR13MB0127BE8EABE46B047AC295F19F4F0@CY1PR13MB0127.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
 <1F13C891-784A-47A8-8D12-D791CCCE2DE1@une.edu.au>
 <c36bb900-31bd-72a1-b8d7-80453b40885c@notengrafik.com>
 <CY1PR13MB0127BE8EABE46B047AC295F19F4F0@CY1PR13MB0127.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <1CB299A0-453E-44F0-9A45-F683298BB9D8@une.edu.au>

OK, thanks for answers. Fine if you don't mind mixing categories. 

-
Dr Jason Stoessel, BMus/BA, BA Hons, PhD
Coordinator of Bachelor of Music with Honours
Coordinator of Research Seminar Series
School of Arts
University of New England
Armidale NSW 2350
AUSTRALIA
 
ph. 02 6773 2624 int’l +61 2 6773 2624
e-mail: jason.stoessel at une.edu.au 
Skype ID: jjstoessel
une-au.academia.edu/JasonStoessel
--
Chief Investigator, ARC Discovery Project (DP150102135)
“Canonic techniques and musical change, c.1330–c.1530"
--
2014–2015 Associate Investigator
ARC Centre of Excellence for the History of Emotions (CE110001011)
—
CRICOS Provider Number: 00003G



> On 17 Oct 2017, at 2:42 am, Roland, Perry (pdr4h) <pdr4h at virginia.edu> wrote:
> 
> 
> I agree.  There's no need to change the name of the @intm attribute.  And "sl" and "sh" should be "sd" and "su".
> 
> --
> p.
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: mei-neumes-ig [mailto:mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] On Behalf
>> Of Thomas Weber
>> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 5:05 AM
>> To: Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative <mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-
>> paderborn.de>; Jason Stoessel <Jason.Stoessel at une.edu.au>
>> Cc: ngb at notengrafik.com
>> Subject: Re: [mei-neumes-ig] [SPAM?] Re: MEI Neumes Module Draft, Version 0.21
>> 
>> Am 16.10.2017 um 00:42 schrieb Jason Stoessel:
>>> One question regarding @intm nomenclature came to mind, however. For me, what it
>> seems to describe is not a relative melodic interval per se but melodic contour (or melodic
>> motion) (an extension of Parsons code, as such, if this is not stating the obvious). So would
>> it be more appropriate to refer instead to @melcont?
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> @intm is an already established attribute that can be used both for relative as well as
>> absolute descriptions.
>> 
>> http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/data.INTERVAL.MELODIC/
>> 
>> One thing I'd find more logical, though, would be if the values "sh" and "sl" would be
>> replaced with "su" and "sd" because we have the pre-existing "u", "d" and "s".
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Notengrafik Berlin GmbH
>> HRB 15007
>> 
>> UstID: DE 289234097
>> Geschäftsführer:
>> Thomas Weber und Werner J. Wolff
>> 
>> fon: +49 30 220661685
>> 
>> Leuschnerdamm 13
>> 10999 Berlin
>> 
>> notengrafik.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
>> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
>> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig
> _______________________________________________
> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig


From thomas.weber at notengrafik.com  Tue Oct 17 13:57:01 2017
From: thomas.weber at notengrafik.com (Thomas Weber)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2017 13:57:01 +0200
Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] oriscus + other nc types, Draft 0.21
In-Reply-To: <CY1PR13MB012732D29AE56B26BF92D50C9F4F0@CY1PR13MB0127.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
References: <310B8AC5-3E74-4697-B141-7116F85D5BD3@mcgill.ca>
 <CY1PR13MB012732D29AE56B26BF92D50C9F4F0@CY1PR13MB0127.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <bbd3a0eb-6fcc-1e33-9f98-45a314df4035@notengrafik.com>

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