[mei-neumes-ig] Style name

Tue Jun 21 22:03:03 CEST 2016

Thanks Perry!  That sounds like the place for notational style terms (old
or new).
And, I'm assuming that new classifications can be a later addition, so we
don't have to consider it right away.
All the best,
Debra

----------------------------------------------------
Debra Lacoste, Ph.D.

| Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca ||
| also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus ||
| University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor ||

| dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca |
| debra.lacoste at gmail.com |

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 2:02 PM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) <
pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu> wrote:

>
> The <classification> elements exists to avoid integrating thesauri /
> ontologies into MEI.  With this approach, there can be any number of
> external classification schemes.  MEI only needs to provide a mechanism by
> which elements of the markup, like <neume> can be associated with a term.
>
> --
> p.
>
> __________________________
> Perry Roland
> Music Library
> University of Virginia
> P. O. Box 400175
> Charlottesville, VA 22904
> 434-982-2702 (w)
> pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu
> ------------------------------
> *From:* mei-neumes-ig [mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] on
> behalf of Kate Helsen [katehelsen at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 21, 2016 12:43 PM
> *To:* Debra Lacoste; Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding
> Initiative
> *Subject:* Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name
>
> Would this help?
> http://individual.utoronto.ca/notaquadrata/lexicon.html
> <http://redir.aspx?REF=qZsLAgnBv2bRNi_1nzdkidQJKcm5FZnVp_N1ZGMp9msvJtVN_ZnTCAFodHRwOi8vaW5kaXZpZHVhbC51dG9yb250by5jYS9ub3RhcXVhZHJhdGEvbGV4aWNvbi5odG1s>
>
> I can get in touch with John Haines about copyright of this, and perhaps
> he'd be happy to see it integrated into MEI terminology. (This was part of
> my post-doc life in Toronto, five years ago.)
>
> Cheers,
> Kate
>
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Debra Lacoste <dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca
> <http://redir.aspx?REF=X5p0B7WncLyVTroyLLuotVLmiyaaDWGtnLuhzpoP91svJtVN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86ZGxhY29zdGVAdXdhdGVybG9vLmNh>
> > wrote:
>
>> Thanks for your message, Andrew.
>> I was thinking more along the lines of the broad families, actually.
>>
>> It's the names that are problematic in my opinion, so I was thinking that
>> instead of using solely the established names (i.e. "French", "St. Gall",
>> "Messine", etc.), we could ALSO have a name that describes the look of the
>> neumes.  (My use of "scribal" wasn't intended to point to small and/or
>> unique characteristics of a particular hand or style.  Instead, I was
>> leaning towards a new way to name notational styles that is based on "look"
>> instead of location.)
>>
>> I have attached some examples of notations from all over Europe.  They
>> could be described in these ways: "slanted ductus, narrow nib" (or "slanted
>> narrow"), "vertical ductus, narrow nib," "small square," etc. (we would
>> have to make up the names).
>> I see similarities in the first 4 examples, especially as compared to the
>> other 3. Yet, they are all named in the literature as distinct notational
>> styles.
>>
>> I was thinking that since we are still in the early stages here, we could
>> have a place-holder for a different way to name the notational styles. It
>> may or may not be adopted by researchers, but I think it *could* simplify
>> the discussion surrounding neumes and possibly reduce the number of
>> different types that are currently being distinguished.
>>
>> Just a thought!
>> Debra
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Debra Lacoste, Ph.D.
>>
>> | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca
>> <http://redir.aspx?REF=mB_3D8-3ZnWiUF8bEhD0lTRPkIo24Mo1nLbxgTCimVovJtVN_ZnTCAFodHRwOi8vY2FudHVzLnV3YXRlcmxvby5jYQ..>
>> ||
>> | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus
>> <http://redir.aspx?REF=c2HPlBvjryOT5deUhNwk4df3g7hbhNuSCjdf8c8dvNgvJtVN_ZnTCAFodHRwczovL3V3YXRlcmxvby5jYS9tYXJnb3QvbWFyZ290LXByb2plY3RzL2NhbnR1cw..>
>> ||
>> | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor ||
>>
>> | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca
>> <http://redir.aspx?REF=X5p0B7WncLyVTroyLLuotVLmiyaaDWGtnLuhzpoP91svJtVN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86ZGxhY29zdGVAdXdhdGVybG9vLmNh>
>> |
>> | debra.lacoste at gmail.com
>> <http://redir.aspx?REF=eHIJ6POcRe5fNzw5TrhGOqtzbUknq_t8eXlmfhfUT1EvJtVN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86ZGVicmEubGFjb3N0ZUBnbWFpbC5jb20.>
>> |
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Hankinson <
>> andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca
>> <http://redir.aspx?REF=Uc2GGjFVeppvLU9mNAC0V2qre93XQhsz7DiX5HlGVucvJtVN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86YW5kcmV3LmhhbmtpbnNvbkBtYWlsLm1jZ2lsbC5jYQ..>
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> These are separate issues, I think. What Perry said in his previous
>>> e-mail is that, if we can come up with a list of style identifiers for
>>> neumes that we can categorize them into broad families. This is to help
>>> with, for example, a potential renderer, so that we can display neumes in
>>> st. gallen style, or in square style.
>>>
>>> Scribal features are best kept to a different set of tags in MEI -- the
>>> 'hand' element:
>>>
>>> http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/hand/
>>> <http://redir.aspx?REF=cuBzwam5eJCoOH_Z-Q5KwtI8VhckzdpAc9WsNNz9-AQvJtVN_ZnTCAFodHRwOi8vbXVzaWMtZW5jb2Rpbmcub3JnL2RvY3VtZW50YXRpb24vMy4wLjAvaGFuZC8.>
>>>
>>> Capturing particular graphical features ("this scribe always puts a
>>> little jiggly thing at the end of their virga") would be much harder to
>>> describe systematically (that is, in an XML encoding hierarchy), and would
>>> arguably be better left to a graphical display standard, like SVG.
>>>
>>> But it depends on why you want to encode these things. Do you want to
>>> display the rendering exactly like the original page image? If so, why not
>>> just show the original image? Do you want to find the place where a
>>> particular scribe appears? Use the hand/handShift/handList elements.
>>>
>>> If you want to find a particular graphical correspondence between
>>> different MSS images, the notation encoding process is probably not the
>>> right place for this. That would probably be better left to a (theoretical)
>>> image comparison system directly, since it will be much more precise
>>> without also needing the work of somehow systematically capturing all the
>>> nuances of a particular scribe.
>>>
>>> On Jun 21, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Debra Lacoste <dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca
>>> <http://redir.aspx?REF=X5p0B7WncLyVTroyLLuotVLmiyaaDWGtnLuhzpoP91svJtVN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86ZGxhY29zdGVAdXdhdGVybG9vLmNh>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello everyone,
>>> It's been interesting to follow these discussions.
>>> I don't want to muddy the waters here, but I wonder if we can assign two
>>> <styleName> elements? (if this element is the one that will describe the
>>> neumes at the level of the notational type, like "St Gall" or "French")
>>>
>>> We might want to (at some point) identify notational forms according to
>>> their graphical/scribal features (instead of or in addition to the more
>>> traditional geographical distinctions), or perhaps you're already planning
>>> this and I just haven't kept up. (If so, my apologies!)
>>>
>>>
>>> For example, "St Gall" neumes in the early books look a lot like
>>> "Messine" or "Laon" neumes (the latter lack the significative letters, but
>>> the ductus, size of the pen-nib, "swirliness" and other features are quite
>>> similar). Those same neumes show up in so-called "Klosterneuburg" notation
>>> in the 12th century, but by the 14th century the "Klosterneuburg" neumes
>>> are more "Gothic" in style, related perhaps to other "German" neumes.
>>>
>>>
>>> In my experience, palaeographic research in the 20th century generally
>>> separated neume styles according to their geographic origin (accompanied by
>>> geographic names, like "French", "Klosterneuburg", "Laon," etc.), but the
>>> computer will be able to spot identical shapes in books from a wide range
>>> of places in Europe.  It could be that there is sometimes more of a
>>> connection between scribal styles of a particular *time* than of particular
>>> places. There is no doubt that some notations are specific to a particular
>>> place (Benevento, for example), but the notational style could still be
>>> assigned to a category of what the neumes look like (which would
>>> revolutionize the nomenclature of palaeography! ... No, I'm not sure I want
>>> to tackle that, but when all the individual neume-shapes are itemized and
>>> classified, I'm sure there will be duplicates in other notations and
>>> someone will take it on one day).
>>>
>>>
>>> If the <styleName> element isn't the right place for a new name to
>>> denote a category of shapes that look similar, is there another tag where
>>> this could be entered?
>>>
>>> To be clear, this "scribal" identification I am suggesting is at the
>>> level of the notational style overall ... comparable to how we say "square
>>> neumes," "Gothic neumes", "German neumes", "Italian neumes", etc. but not
>>> tied to a geographical location. (For instance, "square neumes" is already
>>> perfect!  It describes what it looks like, and the Franciscan mss from
>>> Italy show the same types of neumes and graphical features as mss from
>>> France with that notational style.)  I can see such a description being
>>> applied at the level of the individual neume within any set of neumes from
>>> any place, and then connections across previously distinct notational
>>> styles will become more obvious.
>>>
>>> (and with enough samples the computer could determine whether or not the
>>> shape is similar enough and IT can uncover the connections between
>>> "Messine", "Klosterneuburg, "south-German" and "St Gall" neumes!)
>>>
>>> Sorry to be so long in describing this.  It seems like the right time to
>>> consider the larger question of notational styles and how we perceive them,
>>> esp. since we are looking forward to branching out and working with
>>> manuscripts from France (Paris lat 12044 and 15181 -- with very different
>>> notations!) and perhaps some from Austria.
>>>
>>> Debra
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>> Debra Lacoste, Ph.D.
>>>
>>> | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca
>>> <http://redir.aspx?REF=65rqLvsBtv-ueHObjnS2cUd5MULueDrxUyXm8yTZWkMvJtVN_ZnTCAFodHRwOi8vY2FudHVzLnV3YXRlcmxvby5jYS8.>
>>> ||
>>> | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus
>>> <http://redir.aspx?REF=c2HPlBvjryOT5deUhNwk4df3g7hbhNuSCjdf8c8dvNgvJtVN_ZnTCAFodHRwczovL3V3YXRlcmxvby5jYS9tYXJnb3QvbWFyZ290LXByb2plY3RzL2NhbnR1cw..>
>>> ||
>>> | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor ||
>>>
>>> | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca
>>> <http://redir.aspx?REF=X5p0B7WncLyVTroyLLuotVLmiyaaDWGtnLuhzpoP91svJtVN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86ZGxhY29zdGVAdXdhdGVybG9vLmNh>
>>> |
>>> | debra.lacoste at gmail.com
>>> <http://redir.aspx?REF=eHIJ6POcRe5fNzw5TrhGOqtzbUknq_t8eXlmfhfUT1EvJtVN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86ZGVicmEubGFjb3N0ZUBnbWFpbC5jb20.>
>>> |
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) <
>>> pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu
>>> <http://redir.aspx?REF=6RxWcZTXHcwuZATMzZGzEzFQO-Oax4bW7BE5W3BvWLsvJtVN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86cGRyNGhAZXNlcnZpY2VzLnZpcmdpbmlhLmVkdQ..>
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Andrew,
>>>>
>>>> The <styleName> element has been present since the earliest versions of
>>>> MEI, although v. 2010-05 is when it got a camel-cased name.  It can occur
>>>> anywhere transcribed text is allowed.  It's intended to be used to mark a
>>>> stylistic term in para-text and metadata.  <styleName> is not a metadata
>>>> "field" / container itself and therefore doesn't occur directly within the
>>>> header, say in <encodingDesc>, because allowing it there would place it in
>>>> competition with <classification>.
>>>>
>>>> However, 3.0.0 does provide a pair of new attributes on <staffDef> that
>>>> can be used to describe the notation on each staff.  The @notationtype may
>>>> take the values "cmn", "mensural", "mensural.black", "mensural.white",
>>>> "neume", and "tab", while @notationsubtype may take any textual value.  If
>>>> a 3-tiered classification is necessary for neume notation (like that
>>>> provided for via the "mensural.black" and "mensural.white" values plus
>>>> subtype) we can extend the value set for @notationtype.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> p.
>>>>
>>>> __________________________
>>>> Perry Roland
>>>> Music Library
>>>> University of Virginia
>>>> P. O. Box 400175
>>>> Charlottesville, VA 22904
>>>> 434-982-2702 (w)
>>>> pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: mei-neumes-ig [mei-neumes-ig-bounces+pdr4h=
>>>> eservices.virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de
>>>> <http://redir.aspx?REF=R-X4AjrHVA4q9zNHA-WU_bXUU02_DkiyRpR86Dww4z2Qh9dN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86ZXNlcnZpY2VzLnZpcmdpbmlhLmVkdUBsaXN0cy51bmktcGFkZXJib3JuLmRl>]
>>>> on behalf of Andrew Hankinson [andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca
>>>> <http://redir.aspx?REF=7IdcY6hzgo9eqoPBm93bdJNzuHOygP4e40xFNrPsPsOQh9dN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86YW5kcmV3LmhhbmtpbnNvbkBtYWlsLm1jZ2lsbC5jYQ..>
>>>> ]
>>>> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 1:31 PM
>>>> To: mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
>>>> <http://redir.aspx?REF=3T2DbdwgDmAHxp9ipocsk3NhViRUUzBBg_Hbeu9zChuQh9dN_ZnTCAFtYWlsdG86bWVpLW5ldW1lcy1pZ0BsaXN0cy51bmktcGFkZXJib3JuLmRl>
>>>> Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name
>>>>
>>>> Hi all (but esp. Perry):
>>>>
>>>> I was just perusing the new 3.0.0 guidelines, and noticed a new
>>>> element: "<styleName>".
>>>>
>>>> The documentation for it says "A label for a characteristic style of
>>>> writing or performance, such as 'bebop' or 'rock-n-roll'." Is one possible
>>>> use of this as an identifier of notation-specific writing styles like "st.
>>>> gall" or "square neumes"?
>>>>
>>>> I just wanted to check because I seem to remember Perry and I having
>>>> long arguments over how to best capture this, and am surprised to see it
>>>> there now. :)
>>>>
>>>> -Andrew
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
>>>> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mei-neumes-ig mailing list
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>
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