From ich at music.mcgill.ca Mon Jun 13 03:50:46 2016 From: ich at music.mcgill.ca (Ichiro Fujinaga) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 10:50:46 +0900 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Background Message-ID: <15D69251-1FF4-4D88-956F-790A8DD4B8DA@music.mcgill.ca> Greetings, Perry Roland has graciously offered to help us with building the MEI Neume Customization Module. Here’s what I sent to him. If there’re any corrections or additions please post them here. He has questions which I will post separately. Ich > On Jun 7, 2016, at 11:28 AM, Ichiro Fujinaga wrote: > > That would be great! > Thank you for offering your expertise! > > I’ll try to summarize what we discussed: > > First, a neume consists of one or more neume component(s) (nc); musicologists call this a “pitch”. > > For each nc, there are two major (mandatory?) properties: “relation to previous” and “connection (type)”. > “Relation to previous” is basically the relative height position to the previous nc. > “Connection” is how the current nc is connected to the previous nc. > > There seems to be six (6) different types of “relation to previous”: High, Low, Neutral (or Unknown), Same, Same or higher, and Same or lower. > > The eight (8) “connection” types are: Curbed clockwise, Curbed anti-clockwise, Angular, Gap, Quilisma curve 2, Quilisma curve 3, Looped, and V-shape. > > Then there are several optional attributes or modifications that can be applied to each nc: > Episema, Liquescent, Jagged, Oriscus, Long, Flat, and Crook. > > Finally, there are attributes/modification that can be applied to the entire neume: > Significative letters, After lower, After higher, Hispanic tick 1, and Hispanic tick 2. > > There are other symbols unrelated to nuemes, such as clefs, repeat signs, modal alphabetic letters, repetenda signs, custos, unknown or “Mysterious” symbols, and scribal angle (I don’t know what this means). > > I’m attaching a spreadsheet containing some of examples of neumes with some of the combinations of the above attributes. > There are some codings in there that needs clarification, such as “op” and “W3”. I will ask on the neume mailing list. > > I hope I’ve given you something to get started. Let me know if you have questions, most of which I will probably have to referred to the experts. > > Thank you again for your help! > > Ich > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Neume Image1.May20.xlsx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.spreadsheetml.sheet Size: 334193 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ich at music.mcgill.ca Mon Jun 13 04:03:17 2016 From: ich at music.mcgill.ca (Ichiro Fujinaga) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 11:03:17 +0900 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #1 In-Reply-To: <15D69251-1FF4-4D88-956F-790A8DD4B8DA@music.mcgill.ca> References: <15D69251-1FF4-4D88-956F-790A8DD4B8DA@music.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: <7DDB44AD-2BC3-46C3-93FA-DDCB01AC8352@music.mcgill.ca> There are letters in the Pitch Modification column in the spreadsheet that do not seemed to be defined. Can someone let us know what the following modifications mean? c (crook?) q h p (as in op) Also do w2/w3 mean the same thing as 2W/3W respectively? Thanks, Ich From ich at music.mcgill.ca Mon Jun 13 12:06:44 2016 From: ich at music.mcgill.ca (Ichiro Fujinaga) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 19:06:44 +0900 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] =?utf-8?b?44CAUXVlc3Rpb24gIzI=?= In-Reply-To: <7DDB44AD-2BC3-46C3-93FA-DDCB01AC8352@music.mcgill.ca> References: <15D69251-1FF4-4D88-956F-790A8DD4B8DA@music.mcgill.ca> <7DDB44AD-2BC3-46C3-93FA-DDCB01AC8352@music.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: <1C06D7E2-D699-47BB-8CB1-501F37013573@music.mcgill.ca> Here’s a question from Perry. "How do so-called "compound neumes" fit into this system? It doesn't appear to me that neumes can consist of other, more basic neumes. Is that correct?’ Ich From ich at music.mcgill.ca Mon Jun 13 12:07:56 2016 From: ich at music.mcgill.ca (Ichiro Fujinaga) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 19:07:56 +0900 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #3 In-Reply-To: <1C06D7E2-D699-47BB-8CB1-501F37013573@music.mcgill.ca> References: <15D69251-1FF4-4D88-956F-790A8DD4B8DA@music.mcgill.ca> <7DDB44AD-2BC3-46C3-93FA-DDCB01AC8352@music.mcgill.ca> <1C06D7E2-D699-47BB-8CB1-501F37013573@music.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: <1671E3E5-0A59-4A96-963F-72CCC6B06201@music.mcgill.ca> What does the yellow highlighting in some of the cells in the spreadsheet signify? Ich & Perry From katehelsen at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 13:10:49 2016 From: katehelsen at gmail.com (Kate Helsen) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 07:10:49 -0400 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #3 In-Reply-To: <1671E3E5-0A59-4A96-963F-72CCC6B06201@music.mcgill.ca> References: <15D69251-1FF4-4D88-956F-790A8DD4B8DA@music.mcgill.ca> <7DDB44AD-2BC3-46C3-93FA-DDCB01AC8352@music.mcgill.ca> <1C06D7E2-D699-47BB-8CB1-501F37013573@music.mcgill.ca> <1671E3E5-0A59-4A96-963F-72CCC6B06201@music.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: <575e94bb.2432ed0a.5fd0d.73e4@mx.google.com> Inga and I are currently working to iron out the details and inconsistencies with this table. It had bounced between us each one time already and we are getting there. I wasn't thinking that you would want a clean, workable copy this soon, but I think I'm a few more days we could give you something much more understandable. For example, we are adding compound neumes that we are characterizing as having a "gapped connection". The yellow squares were those with questions for the semiological people. Thanks so much for looking at this so soon. We will have a good copy for you within the week, if possible. Cheers Kate -----Original Message----- From: "Ichiro Fujinaga" Sent: ‎2016-‎06-‎13 6:07 AM To: "mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de" Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #3 What does the yellow highlighting in some of the cells in the spreadsheet signify? Ich & Perry _______________________________________________ mei-neumes-ig mailing list mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From katehelsen at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 16:15:05 2016 From: katehelsen at gmail.com (Kate Helsen) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 10:15:05 -0400 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #1 In-Reply-To: <7DDB44AD-2BC3-46C3-93FA-DDCB01AC8352@music.mcgill.ca> References: <15D69251-1FF4-4D88-956F-790A8DD4B8DA@music.mcgill.ca> <7DDB44AD-2BC3-46C3-93FA-DDCB01AC8352@music.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: Hi all, Inga and I are hoping to have a clearer table to you soon, with all these 'bugs' worked out. In the meantime: There are letters in the Pitch Modification column in the spreadsheet that > do not seemed to be defined. > > Can someone let us know what the following modifications mean? > > c (crook?) > curved (as in, connection is curved, as opposed to angular) > q > This is our new symbol for 'quilisma', to fall in line with the Old Hispanic nomenclature. Before, we were using "w" which is what Hughes always used ('w' is also the letter to get a quilisma in Volpiano font, but that's beside the point.) > h > This is gone now; it used to stand for a kind of German-English way of describing what we are now calling "jagged", with a 'j' as abbreviation. > p (as in op) > This is also gone now, replaced by 'f' for 'flat' (and "flach" in German.) Before, it meant "plane", geometrically. > > Also do w2/w3 mean the same thing as 2W/3W respectively? > Yes, but we are not using "w" anymore to describe quilismas; we are using 'q'. K. __________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From katehelsen at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 16:21:44 2016 From: katehelsen at gmail.com (Kate Helsen) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 10:21:44 -0400 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Background In-Reply-To: <15D69251-1FF4-4D88-956F-790A8DD4B8DA@music.mcgill.ca> References: <15D69251-1FF4-4D88-956F-790A8DD4B8DA@music.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: Scribal angle just means the generalized angle that the scribe uses to express pitches going up or down within a neume itself. For example, in a neume that represents three pitches going up and then two going down, the scribe might write the three ascending ones almost right over top of one another (a "vertical angle") and then the descending ones with more of a wide angle - pointing sort of 'south-east', if you like. Another scribe from a different geographic area might make the ascending pitches at more of a 45 degree angle with the descending ones almost straight up and down. I'm not sure that we totally *need* to express this in every neume, since it is usually a feature of scribal habit or tradition and will be the same throughout the entire manuscript - or at least everything that is written by that scribe and others trained in a similar way. But it is something that semiologists talk about a lot because it helps distinguish, at a glance, one scribal tradition from another. (People often also talk about how the more vertical renderings were more amenable to the musical staff, once it came along.) Cheers, K On Sun, Jun 12, 2016 at 9:50 PM, Ichiro Fujinaga wrote: > Greetings, > > Perry Roland has graciously offered to help us with building the MEI Neume > Customization Module. > > Here’s what I sent to him. > If there’re any corrections or additions please post them here. > > He has questions which I will post separately. > > Ich > > > On Jun 7, 2016, at 11:28 AM, Ichiro Fujinaga > wrote: > > > > That would be great! > > Thank you for offering your expertise! > > > > I’ll try to summarize what we discussed: > > > > First, a neume consists of one or more neume component(s) (nc); > musicologists call this a “pitch”. > > > > For each nc, there are two major (mandatory?) properties: “relation to > previous” and “connection (type)”. > > “Relation to previous” is basically the relative height position to the > previous nc. > > “Connection” is how the current nc is connected to the previous nc. > > > > There seems to be six (6) different types of “relation to previous”: > High, Low, Neutral (or Unknown), Same, Same or higher, and Same or lower. > > > > The eight (8) “connection” types are: Curbed clockwise, Curbed > anti-clockwise, Angular, Gap, Quilisma curve 2, Quilisma curve 3, Looped, > and V-shape. > > > > Then there are several optional attributes or modifications that can be > applied to each nc: > > Episema, Liquescent, Jagged, Oriscus, Long, Flat, and Crook. > > > > Finally, there are attributes/modification that can be applied to the > entire neume: > > Significative letters, After lower, After higher, Hispanic tick 1, and > Hispanic tick 2. > > > > There are other symbols unrelated to nuemes, such as clefs, repeat > signs, modal alphabetic letters, repetenda signs, custos, unknown or > “Mysterious” symbols, and scribal angle (I don’t know what this means). > > > > I’m attaching a spreadsheet containing some of examples of neumes with > some of the combinations of the above attributes. > > There are some codings in there that needs clarification, such as “op” > and “W3”. I will ask on the neume mailing list. > > > > I hope I’ve given you something to get started. Let me know if you have > questions, most of which I will probably have to referred to the experts. > > > > Thank you again for your help! > > > > Ich > > > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From katehelsen at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 16:40:00 2016 From: katehelsen at gmail.com (Kate Helsen) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 10:40:00 -0400 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2 Message-ID: In the list you have, we specifically did not try to describe any neume which looked like it was put together of several neumes. (Imagine, for example, that you have a pes followed by two puncti, the first higher than the second. That's called "Pes Subipunctis" and is considered one "neume", but it is made up of those two basic neumes, the second of which is repeated. HOWEVER: now that we have "connection" as one of the attributes of the neume, and we can used "gapped connection" as a legit kind of connection, we can describe the compound neumes, right? That was my understanding, anyway. And, going on that, Inga and I are now adding those kind of neumes to the table. (That's why it's taking some time.) Cheers, K On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 6:06 AM, Ichiro Fujinaga wrote: > Here’s a question from Perry. > > "How do so-called "compound neumes" fit into this system? It doesn't > appear to me that neumes can consist of other, more basic neumes. Is that > correct?’ > > Ich > > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu Mon Jun 13 16:40:55 2016 From: pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu (Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h)) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 14:40:55 +0000 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Background In-Reply-To: References: <15D69251-1FF4-4D88-956F-790A8DD4B8DA@music.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: Hi Kate, MEI already has a general way of handling the description of scribal hands. As you observe, there's no compelling reason to put the description on every element / neume. So, MEI provides the element, which holds the description, and the @hand attribute, which members of the att.handident class can use to reference the description. Currently there's no machine-processable way (using a dedicated attribute on , for instance) to indicate scribal angle. But that's something that can be considered as part of the neume revision process. -- p. From: mei-neumes-ig [mailto:mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] On Behalf Of Kate Helsen Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 10:22 AM To: Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative Subject: Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Background Scribal angle just means the generalized angle that the scribe uses to express pitches going up or down within a neume itself. For example, in a neume that represents three pitches going up and then two going down, the scribe might write the three ascending ones almost right over top of one another (a "vertical angle") and then the descending ones with more of a wide angle - pointing sort of 'south-east', if you like. Another scribe from a different geographic area might make the ascending pitches at more of a 45 degree angle with the descending ones almost straight up and down. I'm not sure that we totally *need* to express this in every neume, since it is usually a feature of scribal habit or tradition and will be the same throughout the entire manuscript - or at least everything that is written by that scribe and others trained in a similar way. But it is something that semiologists talk about a lot because it helps distinguish, at a glance, one scribal tradition from another. (People often also talk about how the more vertical renderings were more amenable to the musical staff, once it came along.) Cheers, K On Sun, Jun 12, 2016 at 9:50 PM, Ichiro Fujinaga > wrote: Greetings, Perry Roland has graciously offered to help us with building the MEI Neume Customization Module. Here’s what I sent to him. If there’re any corrections or additions please post them here. He has questions which I will post separately. Ich > On Jun 7, 2016, at 11:28 AM, Ichiro Fujinaga > wrote: > > That would be great! > Thank you for offering your expertise! > > I’ll try to summarize what we discussed: > > First, a neume consists of one or more neume component(s) (nc); musicologists call this a “pitch”. > > For each nc, there are two major (mandatory?) properties: “relation to previous” and “connection (type)”. > “Relation to previous” is basically the relative height position to the previous nc. > “Connection” is how the current nc is connected to the previous nc. > > There seems to be six (6) different types of “relation to previous”: High, Low, Neutral (or Unknown), Same, Same or higher, and Same or lower. > > The eight (8) “connection” types are: Curbed clockwise, Curbed anti-clockwise, Angular, Gap, Quilisma curve 2, Quilisma curve 3, Looped, and V-shape. > > Then there are several optional attributes or modifications that can be applied to each nc: > Episema, Liquescent, Jagged, Oriscus, Long, Flat, and Crook. > > Finally, there are attributes/modification that can be applied to the entire neume: > Significative letters, After lower, After higher, Hispanic tick 1, and Hispanic tick 2. > > There are other symbols unrelated to nuemes, such as clefs, repeat signs, modal alphabetic letters, repetenda signs, custos, unknown or “Mysterious” symbols, and scribal angle (I don’t know what this means). > > I’m attaching a spreadsheet containing some of examples of neumes with some of the combinations of the above attributes. > There are some codings in there that needs clarification, such as “op” and “W3”. I will ask on the neume mailing list. > > I hope I’ve given you something to get started. Let me know if you have questions, most of which I will probably have to referred to the experts. > > Thank you again for your help! > > Ich > _______________________________________________ mei-neumes-ig mailing list mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From katehelsen at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 16:46:48 2016 From: katehelsen at gmail.com (Kate Helsen) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 10:46:48 -0400 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Background In-Reply-To: References: <15D69251-1FF4-4D88-956F-790A8DD4B8DA@music.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: Thanks, Perry. I think the 'hand' element is a good place to start thinking about placing this kind of information. K. On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 10:40 AM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) < pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu> wrote: > > > Hi Kate, > > > > MEI already has a general way of handling the description of scribal > hands. As you observe, there's no compelling reason to put the description > on every element / neume. So, MEI provides the element, which holds > the description, and the @hand attribute, which members of the > att.handident class can use to reference the description. Currently > there's no machine-processable way (using a dedicated attribute on , > for instance) to indicate scribal angle. But that's something that can be > considered as part of the neume revision process. > > > > -- > > p. > > > > > > *From:* mei-neumes-ig [mailto:mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] > *On Behalf Of *Kate Helsen > *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 10:22 AM > *To:* Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative > *Subject:* Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Background > > > > Scribal angle just means the generalized angle that the scribe uses to > express pitches going up or down within a neume itself. For example, in a > neume that represents three pitches going up and then two going down, the > scribe might write the three ascending ones almost right over top of one > another (a "vertical angle") and then the descending ones with more of a > wide angle - pointing sort of 'south-east', if you like. Another scribe > from a different geographic area might make the ascending pitches at more > of a 45 degree angle with the descending ones almost straight up and down. > > > > I'm not sure that we totally *need* to express this in every neume, since > it is usually a feature of scribal habit or tradition and will be the same > throughout the entire manuscript - or at least everything that is written > by that scribe and others trained in a similar way. But it is something > that semiologists talk about a lot because it helps distinguish, at a > glance, one scribal tradition from another. (People often also talk about > how the more vertical renderings were more amenable to the musical staff, > once it came along.) > > > > Cheers, > > K > > > > On Sun, Jun 12, 2016 at 9:50 PM, Ichiro Fujinaga > wrote: > > Greetings, > > Perry Roland has graciously offered to help us with building the MEI Neume > Customization Module. > > Here’s what I sent to him. > If there’re any corrections or additions please post them here. > > He has questions which I will post separately. > > Ich > > > On Jun 7, 2016, at 11:28 AM, Ichiro Fujinaga > wrote: > > > > That would be great! > > Thank you for offering your expertise! > > > > I’ll try to summarize what we discussed: > > > > First, a neume consists of one or more neume component(s) (nc); > musicologists call this a “pitch”. > > > > For each nc, there are two major (mandatory?) properties: “relation to > previous” and “connection (type)”. > > “Relation to previous” is basically the relative height position to the > previous nc. > > “Connection” is how the current nc is connected to the previous nc. > > > > There seems to be six (6) different types of “relation to previous”: > High, Low, Neutral (or Unknown), Same, Same or higher, and Same or lower. > > > > The eight (8) “connection” types are: Curbed clockwise, Curbed > anti-clockwise, Angular, Gap, Quilisma curve 2, Quilisma curve 3, Looped, > and V-shape. > > > > Then there are several optional attributes or modifications that can be > applied to each nc: > > Episema, Liquescent, Jagged, Oriscus, Long, Flat, and Crook. > > > > Finally, there are attributes/modification that can be applied to the > entire neume: > > Significative letters, After lower, After higher, Hispanic tick 1, and > Hispanic tick 2. > > > > There are other symbols unrelated to nuemes, such as clefs, repeat > signs, modal alphabetic letters, repetenda signs, custos, unknown or > “Mysterious” symbols, and scribal angle (I don’t know what this means). > > > > I’m attaching a spreadsheet containing some of examples of neumes with > some of the combinations of the above attributes. > > There are some codings in there that needs clarification, such as “op” > and “W3”. I will ask on the neume mailing list. > > > > I hope I’ve given you something to get started. Let me know if you have > questions, most of which I will probably have to referred to the experts. > > > > Thank you again for your help! > > > > Ich > > > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > > > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu Mon Jun 13 17:14:51 2016 From: pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu (Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h)) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:14:51 +0000 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: XML provides 2 basic approaches to describing relationships -- order and containment. Containment is often more intuitive for part/partOf relationships and uses nested elements, e.g., Order is expressed as a list of elements, e.g., In the case of the "pes subipunctis" these might be combined like so, providing a 2-level structure that indicates in a fairly "natural" (or idiomatic XML) way that the pes subipunctis is "made up of" 3 ordered components. Connections (which are non-structural) between the components can be indicated using one or more attributes. I believe this alternative is better than @connection="gapped" because it doesn't mix structural and non-structural relationships. -- p. From: mei-neumes-ig [mailto:mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] On Behalf Of Kate Helsen Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 10:40 AM To: Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative Subject: Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2 In the list you have, we specifically did not try to describe any neume which looked like it was put together of several neumes. (Imagine, for example, that you have a pes followed by two puncti, the first higher than the second. That's called "Pes Subipunctis" and is considered one "neume", but it is made up of those two basic neumes, the second of which is repeated. HOWEVER: now that we have "connection" as one of the attributes of the neume, and we can used "gapped connection" as a legit kind of connection, we can describe the compound neumes, right? That was my understanding, anyway. And, going on that, Inga and I are now adding those kind of neumes to the table. (That's why it's taking some time.) Cheers, K On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 6:06 AM, Ichiro Fujinaga > wrote: Here’s a question from Perry. "How do so-called "compound neumes" fit into this system? It doesn't appear to me that neumes can consist of other, more basic neumes. Is that correct?’ Ich _______________________________________________ mei-neumes-ig mailing list mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From katehelsen at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 17:25:03 2016 From: katehelsen at gmail.com (Kate Helsen) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 11:25:03 -0400 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does expressing these components as containment mean that they will not be considered neumes in their own right? I'm hoping for a method of expression that means that the puncti and the pes contained in a pes subipuntis won't turn up in a search for all puncti (on their own) in the manuscript. On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) < pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu> wrote: > > > XML provides 2 basic approaches to describing relationships -- order and > containment. Containment is often more intuitive for part/partOf > relationships and uses nested elements, e.g., > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Order is expressed as a list of elements, e.g., > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the case of the "pes subipunctis" these might be combined like so, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > providing a 2-level structure that indicates in a fairly "natural" (or > idiomatic XML) way that the pes subipunctis is "made up of" 3 ordered > components. Connections (which are non-structural) between the components > can be indicated using one or more attributes. I believe this alternative > is better than @connection="gapped" because it doesn't mix structural and > non-structural relationships. > > > > -- > > p. > > > > > > *From:* mei-neumes-ig [mailto:mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] > *On Behalf Of *Kate Helsen > *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 10:40 AM > *To:* Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative > *Subject:* Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2 > > > > In the list you have, we specifically did not try to describe any neume > which looked like it was put together of several neumes. (Imagine, for > example, that you have a pes followed by two puncti, the first higher than > the second. That's called "Pes Subipunctis" and is considered one "neume", > but it is made up of those two basic neumes, the second of which is > repeated. > > > > HOWEVER: now that we have "connection" as one of the attributes of the > neume, and we can used "gapped connection" as a legit kind of connection, > we can describe the compound neumes, right? That was my understanding, > anyway. And, going on that, Inga and I are now adding those kind of neumes > to the table. (That's why it's taking some time.) > > > > Cheers, > > K > > > > On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 6:06 AM, Ichiro Fujinaga > wrote: > > Here’s a question from Perry. > > "How do so-called "compound neumes" fit into this system? It doesn't > appear to me that neumes can consist of other, more basic neumes. Is that > correct?’ > > Ich > > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > > > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu Mon Jun 13 17:37:53 2016 From: pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu (Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h)) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:37:53 +0000 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, but I don't understand. You do or don't want to consider the component parts as neumes? -- p. From: mei-neumes-ig [mailto:mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] On Behalf Of Kate Helsen Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 11:26 AM To: Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative Subject: Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2 Does expressing these components as containment mean that they will not be considered neumes in their own right? I'm hoping for a method of expression that means that the puncti and the pes contained in a pes subipuntis won't turn up in a search for all puncti (on their own) in the manuscript. On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) > wrote: XML provides 2 basic approaches to describing relationships -- order and containment. Containment is often more intuitive for part/partOf relationships and uses nested elements, e.g., Order is expressed as a list of elements, e.g., In the case of the "pes subipunctis" these might be combined like so, providing a 2-level structure that indicates in a fairly "natural" (or idiomatic XML) way that the pes subipunctis is "made up of" 3 ordered components. Connections (which are non-structural) between the components can be indicated using one or more attributes. I believe this alternative is better than @connection="gapped" because it doesn't mix structural and non-structural relationships. -- p. From: mei-neumes-ig [mailto:mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] On Behalf Of Kate Helsen Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 10:40 AM To: Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative Subject: Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2 In the list you have, we specifically did not try to describe any neume which looked like it was put together of several neumes. (Imagine, for example, that you have a pes followed by two puncti, the first higher than the second. That's called "Pes Subipunctis" and is considered one "neume", but it is made up of those two basic neumes, the second of which is repeated. HOWEVER: now that we have "connection" as one of the attributes of the neume, and we can used "gapped connection" as a legit kind of connection, we can describe the compound neumes, right? That was my understanding, anyway. And, going on that, Inga and I are now adding those kind of neumes to the table. (That's why it's taking some time.) Cheers, K On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 6:06 AM, Ichiro Fujinaga > wrote: Here’s a question from Perry. "How do so-called "compound neumes" fit into this system? It doesn't appear to me that neumes can consist of other, more basic neumes. Is that correct?’ Ich _______________________________________________ mei-neumes-ig mailing list mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig _______________________________________________ mei-neumes-ig mailing list mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From katehelsen at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 17:44:55 2016 From: katehelsen at gmail.com (Kate Helsen) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 11:44:55 -0400 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If the components are part of a compound neume that is considered as "one thing", then I don't want to have the components appear when a search is performed for a neume on its own, not in the compound. For example, if I search for the sign 'pes', I would like to see only those signs which are considered 'pes' without being part of a compound neume. But I would also like to search for 'pes subipunctis', in which the 'pes' is a part. I might even like to search for only pes signs that are part of the larger 'pes subipunctis.' Hope that's clearer. K On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) < pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu> wrote: > > > Sorry, but I don't understand. You do or don't want to consider the > component parts as neumes? > > > > -- > > p. > > > > > > *From:* mei-neumes-ig [mailto:mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] > *On Behalf Of *Kate Helsen > *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 11:26 AM > > *To:* Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative > *Subject:* Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2 > > > > Does expressing these components as containment mean that they will not be > considered neumes in their own right? I'm hoping for a method of expression > that means that the puncti and the pes contained in a pes subipuntis won't > turn up in a search for all puncti (on their own) in the manuscript. > > > > On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) < > pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu> wrote: > > > > XML provides 2 basic approaches to describing relationships -- order and > containment. Containment is often more intuitive for part/partOf > relationships and uses nested elements, e.g., > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Order is expressed as a list of elements, e.g., > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the case of the "pes subipunctis" these might be combined like so, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > providing a 2-level structure that indicates in a fairly "natural" (or > idiomatic XML) way that the pes subipunctis is "made up of" 3 ordered > components. Connections (which are non-structural) between the components > can be indicated using one or more attributes. I believe this alternative > is better than @connection="gapped" because it doesn't mix structural and > non-structural relationships. > > > > -- > > p. > > > > > > *From:* mei-neumes-ig [mailto:mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] > *On Behalf Of *Kate Helsen > *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2016 10:40 AM > *To:* Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative > *Subject:* Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2 > > > > In the list you have, we specifically did not try to describe any neume > which looked like it was put together of several neumes. (Imagine, for > example, that you have a pes followed by two puncti, the first higher than > the second. That's called "Pes Subipunctis" and is considered one "neume", > but it is made up of those two basic neumes, the second of which is > repeated. > > > > HOWEVER: now that we have "connection" as one of the attributes of the > neume, and we can used "gapped connection" as a legit kind of connection, > we can describe the compound neumes, right? That was my understanding, > anyway. And, going on that, Inga and I are now adding those kind of neumes > to the table. (That's why it's taking some time.) > > > > Cheers, > > K > > > > On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 6:06 AM, Ichiro Fujinaga > wrote: > > Here’s a question from Perry. > > "How do so-called "compound neumes" fit into this system? It doesn't > appear to me that neumes can consist of other, more basic neumes. Is that > correct?’ > > Ich > > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > > > > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > > > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu Mon Jun 13 20:15:56 2016 From: pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu (Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h)) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 18:15:56 +0000 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the clarification. The structure I recommended will permit the inclusion/exclusion of 'pes' as you describe, but how/when that's done is a function of the search software, not the representation. As a demonstration, the XPath statement, mei:neume[@name='pes' and ancestor::mei:neume] selects neumes named 'pes' that are part of a larger structure, while mei:neume[@name='pes' and not(ancestor::mei:neume)] selects ones that are "independent". In a similar vein, mei:neume[@name='pessubipunctis'] matches all neumes named 'pes subipunctis'. If neumes aren't named, then one can only rely on melodic contour. Using this approach, one could never search for either 'pes' or 'pes subipunctis', only for a particular contour (in either absolute or relative terms), in which case any set of elements representing the sought after contour should be returned, unless additional filtering is applied. A filter could, for example, exclude "hits" that don't match the structure of a pes subipunctis; that is, a neume consisting of a two-note neume followed by two single-note neumes. Searching for a single-pitch event in an interface designed for contour searching would be counter intuitive, wouldn't it? -- p. From: mei-neumes-ig [mailto:mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] On Behalf Of Kate Helsen Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 11:45 AM To: Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative Subject: Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2 If the components are part of a compound neume that is considered as "one thing", then I don't want to have the components appear when a search is performed for a neume on its own, not in the compound. For example, if I search for the sign 'pes', I would like to see only those signs which are considered 'pes' without being part of a compound neume. But I would also like to search for 'pes subipunctis', in which the 'pes' is a part. I might even like to search for only pes signs that are part of the larger 'pes subipunctis.' Hope that's clearer. K On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 11:37 AM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) > wrote: Sorry, but I don't understand. You do or don't want to consider the component parts as neumes? -- p. From: mei-neumes-ig [mailto:mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] On Behalf Of Kate Helsen Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 11:26 AM To: Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative Subject: Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2 Does expressing these components as containment mean that they will not be considered neumes in their own right? I'm hoping for a method of expression that means that the puncti and the pes contained in a pes subipuntis won't turn up in a search for all puncti (on their own) in the manuscript. On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) > wrote: XML provides 2 basic approaches to describing relationships -- order and containment. Containment is often more intuitive for part/partOf relationships and uses nested elements, e.g., Order is expressed as a list of elements, e.g., In the case of the "pes subipunctis" these might be combined like so, providing a 2-level structure that indicates in a fairly "natural" (or idiomatic XML) way that the pes subipunctis is "made up of" 3 ordered components. Connections (which are non-structural) between the components can be indicated using one or more attributes. I believe this alternative is better than @connection="gapped" because it doesn't mix structural and non-structural relationships. -- p. From: mei-neumes-ig [mailto:mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] On Behalf Of Kate Helsen Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 10:40 AM To: Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative Subject: Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2 In the list you have, we specifically did not try to describe any neume which looked like it was put together of several neumes. (Imagine, for example, that you have a pes followed by two puncti, the first higher than the second. That's called "Pes Subipunctis" and is considered one "neume", but it is made up of those two basic neumes, the second of which is repeated. HOWEVER: now that we have "connection" as one of the attributes of the neume, and we can used "gapped connection" as a legit kind of connection, we can describe the compound neumes, right? That was my understanding, anyway. And, going on that, Inga and I are now adding those kind of neumes to the table. (That's why it's taking some time.) Cheers, K On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 6:06 AM, Ichiro Fujinaga > wrote: Here’s a question from Perry. "How do so-called "compound neumes" fit into this system? It doesn't appear to me that neumes can consist of other, more basic neumes. Is that correct?’ Ich _______________________________________________ mei-neumes-ig mailing list mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig _______________________________________________ mei-neumes-ig mailing list mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig _______________________________________________ mei-neumes-ig mailing list mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From katehelsen at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 02:35:52 2016 From: katehelsen at gmail.com (Kate Helsen) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 20:35:52 -0400 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > If neumes aren't named, then one can only rely on melodic contour. Using > this approach, one could never search for either 'pes' or 'pes > subipunctis', only for a particular contour (in either absolute or relative > terms), in which case any set of elements representing the sought after > contour should be returned, unless additional filtering is applied. A > filter could, for example, exclude "hits" that don't match the structure of > a pes subipunctis; that is, a neume consisting of a two-note neume followed > by two single-note neumes. > In an ideal world, we would have a way of using the neume names AND searching for particular contours, just as different search criteria. The reason is that the same melody is often rendered using different neume and neume combinations, and right now, we aren't sure why. Being able to pin-point areas where contour is the same but neume choice is different, between sources (or even within one manuscript when the melody occurs more than once) would be a very useful thing to do. > > > Searching for a single-pitch event in an interface designed for contour > searching would be counter intuitive, wouldn't it? > There are really only three neumes that represent a single pitch: 1. punctum; 2. virga; 3. tractulus. Everything else represents at least two pitches. So searching for every single punctum in a manuscript might not be the most useful project in the world, but it is at least conceivable to me. Cheers, K > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elsa at campus.ul.pt Thu Jun 16 13:17:48 2016 From: elsa at campus.ul.pt (Elsa De Luca) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 11:17:48 +0000 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Everyone, sorry for my long silence. I had a couple of deadlines on Monday and I am currently getting ready for a Conference in Jerusalem where I'll be in few days. Anyhow, I shall be able to read all your emails in the second half of next week, if in the meanwhile you have an updated table, please send it off! Thank you. All best, Elsa 2016-06-14 0:35 GMT+00:00 Kate Helsen : > >> If neumes aren't named, then one can only rely on melodic contour. Using >> this approach, one could never search for either 'pes' or 'pes >> subipunctis', only for a particular contour (in either absolute or relative >> terms), in which case any set of elements representing the sought after >> contour should be returned, unless additional filtering is applied. A >> filter could, for example, exclude "hits" that don't match the structure of >> a pes subipunctis; that is, a neume consisting of a two-note neume followed >> by two single-note neumes. >> > > In an ideal world, we would have a way of using the neume names AND > searching for particular contours, just as different search criteria. The > reason is that the same melody is often rendered using different neume and > neume combinations, and right now, we aren't sure why. Being able to > pin-point areas where contour is the same but neume choice is different, > between sources (or even within one manuscript when the melody occurs more > than once) would be a very useful thing to do. > > >> >> >> Searching for a single-pitch event in an interface designed for contour >> searching would be counter intuitive, wouldn't it? >> > > There are really only three neumes that represent a single pitch: 1. > punctum; 2. virga; 3. tractulus. Everything else represents at least two > pitches. So searching for every single punctum in a manuscript might not be > the most useful project in the world, but it is at least conceivable to me. > > Cheers, > K > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jennifer.Bain at Dal.Ca Mon Jun 20 04:45:44 2016 From: Jennifer.Bain at Dal.Ca (Jennifer Bain) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 02:45:44 +0000 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] =?euc-kr?q?=A1=A1Question_=232?= In-Reply-To: <1C06D7E2-D699-47BB-8CB1-501F37013573@music.mcgill.ca> References: <15D69251-1FF4-4D88-956F-790A8DD4B8DA@music.mcgill.ca> <7DDB44AD-2BC3-46C3-93FA-DDCB01AC8352@music.mcgill.ca> <1C06D7E2-D699-47BB-8CB1-501F37013573@music.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: I don¹t think that anyone has answered this question yet. In fact, yes, some neumes can consist of other more basic neumes, and this is one of the things that we¹ve been trying to sort out. The corrected table, for example, will include the climacus and the scandicus, both of which are made up of gap-connected puncti with a virga. The punctum or the virga can appear on their own over a single syllable, or they can be grouped together. The scandicus uses several puncti rising up to end with a virga, while the climacus begins with a virga and then has descending puncti. All the best, Jennifer Jennifer Bain, Ph.D. Associate Professor Fountain School of Performing Arts bainj at dal.ca 902-494-3867 Dalhousie University 6101 University Avenue Halifax, NS, B3H 4R2, Canada On 2016-06-13, 07:06, "mei-neumes-ig on behalf of Ichiro Fujinaga" wrote: >Here¹s a question from Perry. > >"How do so-called "compound neumes" fit into this system? It doesn't >appear to me that neumes can consist of other, more basic neumes. Is >that correct?¹ > >Ich > > >_______________________________________________ >mei-neumes-ig mailing list >mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig From Jennifer.Bain at Dal.Ca Mon Jun 20 04:58:44 2016 From: Jennifer.Bain at Dal.Ca (Jennifer Bain) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 02:58:44 +0000 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just found this thread in my email! At least now, Perry, you have a couple of other examples of compound neumes... If I'm understanding correctly, it sounds like compound neumes are not necessarily a problem, which is great. As Kate says, ultimately, we want to be able to do different kinds of searches: by contour, by neume name, and by pitch when dealing with pitched notation. Thanks all! Jennifer Bain, Ph.D. Associate Professor Fountain School of Performing Arts bainj at dal.ca 902-494-3867 Dalhousie University 6101 University Avenue Halifax, NS, B3H 4R2, Canada Recent book: Hildegard of Bingen and Musical Reception: the Modern Revival of a Medieval Composer (Cambridge, 2015) From: mei-neumes-ig > on behalf of Kate Helsen > Reply-To: Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative > Date: Monday, June 13, 2016 at 21:35 To: Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative > Subject: Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Question #2 If neumes aren't named, then one can only rely on melodic contour. Using this approach, one could never search for either 'pes' or 'pes subipunctis', only for a particular contour (in either absolute or relative terms), in which case any set of elements representing the sought after contour should be returned, unless additional filtering is applied. A filter could, for example, exclude "hits" that don't match the structure of a pes subipunctis; that is, a neume consisting of a two-note neume followed by two single-note neumes. In an ideal world, we would have a way of using the neume names AND searching for particular contours, just as different search criteria. The reason is that the same melody is often rendered using different neume and neume combinations, and right now, we aren't sure why. Being able to pin-point areas where contour is the same but neume choice is different, between sources (or even within one manuscript when the melody occurs more than once) would be a very useful thing to do. Searching for a single-pitch event in an interface designed for contour searching would be counter intuitive, wouldn't it? There are really only three neumes that represent a single pitch: 1. punctum; 2. virga; 3. tractulus. Everything else represents at least two pitches. So searching for every single punctum in a manuscript might not be the most useful project in the world, but it is at least conceivable to me. Cheers, K -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca Mon Jun 20 19:30:25 2016 From: andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca (Andrew Hankinson) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:30:25 -0400 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name Message-ID: <75224065-67E0-4F2E-A2FF-391F1883F2B8@mail.mcgill.ca> Hi all (but esp. Perry): I was just perusing the new 3.0.0 guidelines, and noticed a new element: "". The documentation for it says "A label for a characteristic style of writing or performance, such as 'bebop' or 'rock-n-roll'." Is one possible use of this as an identifier of notation-specific writing styles like "st. gall" or "square neumes"? I just wanted to check because I seem to remember Perry and I having long arguments over how to best capture this, and am surprised to see it there now. :) -Andrew From pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu Mon Jun 20 22:55:47 2016 From: pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu (Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h)) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 20:55:47 +0000 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name In-Reply-To: <75224065-67E0-4F2E-A2FF-391F1883F2B8@mail.mcgill.ca> References: <75224065-67E0-4F2E-A2FF-391F1883F2B8@mail.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: Hi Andrew, The element has been present since the earliest versions of MEI, although v. 2010-05 is when it got a camel-cased name. It can occur anywhere transcribed text is allowed. It's intended to be used to mark a stylistic term in para-text and metadata. is not a metadata "field" / container itself and therefore doesn't occur directly within the header, say in , because allowing it there would place it in competition with . However, 3.0.0 does provide a pair of new attributes on that can be used to describe the notation on each staff. The @notationtype may take the values "cmn", "mensural", "mensural.black", "mensural.white", "neume", and "tab", while @notationsubtype may take any textual value. If a 3-tiered classification is necessary for neume notation (like that provided for via the "mensural.black" and "mensural.white" values plus subtype) we can extend the value set for @notationtype. -- p. __________________________ Perry Roland Music Library University of Virginia P. O. Box 400175 Charlottesville, VA 22904 434-982-2702 (w) pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu ________________________________________ From: mei-neumes-ig [mei-neumes-ig-bounces+pdr4h=eservices.virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de] on behalf of Andrew Hankinson [andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca] Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 1:31 PM To: mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name Hi all (but esp. Perry): I was just perusing the new 3.0.0 guidelines, and noticed a new element: "". The documentation for it says "A label for a characteristic style of writing or performance, such as 'bebop' or 'rock-n-roll'." Is one possible use of this as an identifier of notation-specific writing styles like "st. gall" or "square neumes"? I just wanted to check because I seem to remember Perry and I having long arguments over how to best capture this, and am surprised to see it there now. :) -Andrew _______________________________________________ mei-neumes-ig mailing list mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig From pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu Mon Jun 20 23:14:46 2016 From: pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu (Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h)) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 21:14:46 +0000 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] MEI version 3.0.0 released Message-ID: ** Please circulate widely and forgive any cross-posting. ** The MEI Board is happy to announce the release of version 3.0.0 of the MEI specification and documentary guidelines. The Music Encoding Initiative (MEI) is an international collaborative effort to capture the semantics of music notation documents as machine-readable data. Participants in MEI include libraries, universities, companies, and individual researchers from around the world. For more information about MEI, please visit www.music-encoding.org. Highlights of this release include: * association of MEI elements with external code lists, such as Standard Music Font Layout (SMuFL); * expanded metadata capabilities, such as the inclusion of non-MEI metadata formats; * improved representation of typographic details; * description of MEI components using Scalable Vector Graphics (SVG); and * revision of the MEI Guidelines and Data Dictionary (formerly known as the "Tag Library"). To see all of the changes made for this revision, please visit the main Music Encoding Initiative Git repository [1], the Encoding Tools repository [2], and the Sample Encodings repository [3]. The source files, schemata, and guidelines for this release are available from the main Music Encoding Initiative Git repository [4]. Browse-able [5] and printable [6] versions of the Guidelines and Data Dictionary are available from the MEI web site, as are plain text versions of the RNG schemata [7]. The mei21to30 XSLT style sheet, available from the Encoding Tools repository, may be used to convert MEI instances from the previous version (2.1.1, aka MEI2013) to version 3.0.0. Many thanks to everyone who participated in the revision process. Without a great deal of teamwork, an undertaking of this magnitude would not be possible. Of course, any remaining errors are the sole responsibility of the editors. [1] https://github.com/music-encoding/music-encoding [2] https://github.com/music-encoding/encoding-tools/releases/tag/v3.0.0 [3] https://github.com/music-encoding/sample-encodings/releases/tag/v3.0.0 [4] https://github.com/music-encoding/music-encoding/releases/tag/v3.0.0 [5] http://music-encoding.org/support/guidelines/ [6] http://www.music-encoding.org/docs/MEI_Guidelines_v3.0.0.pdf [7] http://www.music-encoding.org/schema/current/ -- p. __________________________ Perry Roland Music Library University of Virginia P. O. Box 400175 Charlottesville, VA 22904 434-982-2702 (w) pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu From dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca Tue Jun 21 16:33:46 2016 From: dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca (Debra Lacoste) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 10:33:46 -0400 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name In-Reply-To: References: <75224065-67E0-4F2E-A2FF-391F1883F2B8@mail.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: Hello everyone, It's been interesting to follow these discussions. I don't want to muddy the waters here, but I wonder if we can assign two elements? (if this element is the one that will describe the neumes at the level of the notational type, like "St Gall" or "French") We might want to (at some point) identify notational forms according to their graphical/scribal features (instead of or in addition to the more traditional geographical distinctions), or perhaps you're already planning this and I just haven't kept up. (If so, my apologies!) For example, "St Gall" neumes in the early books look a lot like "Messine" or "Laon" neumes (the latter lack the significative letters, but the ductus, size of the pen-nib, "swirliness" and other features are quite similar). Those same neumes show up in so-called "Klosterneuburg" notation in the 12th century, but by the 14th century the "Klosterneuburg" neumes are more "Gothic" in style, related perhaps to other "German" neumes. In my experience, palaeographic research in the 20th century generally separated neume styles according to their geographic origin (accompanied by geographic names, like "French", "Klosterneuburg", "Laon," etc.), but the computer will be able to spot identical shapes in books from a wide range of places in Europe. It could be that there is sometimes more of a connection between scribal styles of a particular *time* than of particular places. There is no doubt that some notations are specific to a particular place (Benevento, for example), but the notational style could still be assigned to a category of what the neumes look like (which would revolutionize the nomenclature of palaeography! ... No, I'm not sure I want to tackle that, but when all the individual neume-shapes are itemized and classified, I'm sure there will be duplicates in other notations and someone will take it on one day). If the element isn't the right place for a new name to denote a category of shapes that look similar, is there another tag where this could be entered? To be clear, this "scribal" identification I am suggesting is at the level of the notational style overall ... comparable to how we say "square neumes," "Gothic neumes", "German neumes", "Italian neumes", etc. but not tied to a geographical location. (For instance, "square neumes" is already perfect! It describes what it looks like, and the Franciscan mss from Italy show the same types of neumes and graphical features as mss from France with that notational style.) I can see such a description being applied at the level of the individual neume within any set of neumes from any place, and then connections across previously distinct notational styles will become more obvious. (and with enough samples the computer could determine whether or not the shape is similar enough and IT can uncover the connections between "Messine", "Klosterneuburg, "south-German" and "St Gall" neumes!) Sorry to be so long in describing this. It seems like the right time to consider the larger question of notational styles and how we perceive them, esp. since we are looking forward to branching out and working with manuscripts from France (Paris lat 12044 and 15181 -- with very different notations!) and perhaps some from Austria. Debra ---------------------------------------------------- Debra Lacoste, Ph.D. | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca || | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus || | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor || | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca | | debra.lacoste at gmail.com | On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) < pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu> wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > The element has been present since the earliest versions of > MEI, although v. 2010-05 is when it got a camel-cased name. It can occur > anywhere transcribed text is allowed. It's intended to be used to mark a > stylistic term in para-text and metadata. is not a metadata > "field" / container itself and therefore doesn't occur directly within the > header, say in , because allowing it there would place it in > competition with . > > However, 3.0.0 does provide a pair of new attributes on that > can be used to describe the notation on each staff. The @notationtype may > take the values "cmn", "mensural", "mensural.black", "mensural.white", > "neume", and "tab", while @notationsubtype may take any textual value. If > a 3-tiered classification is necessary for neume notation (like that > provided for via the "mensural.black" and "mensural.white" values plus > subtype) we can extend the value set for @notationtype. > > -- > p. > > __________________________ > Perry Roland > Music Library > University of Virginia > P. O. Box 400175 > Charlottesville, VA 22904 > 434-982-2702 (w) > pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu > ________________________________________ > From: mei-neumes-ig [mei-neumes-ig-bounces+pdr4h= > eservices.virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de] on behalf of Andrew > Hankinson [andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca] > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 1:31 PM > To: mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name > > Hi all (but esp. Perry): > > I was just perusing the new 3.0.0 guidelines, and noticed a new element: > "". > > The documentation for it says "A label for a characteristic style of > writing or performance, such as 'bebop' or 'rock-n-roll'." Is one possible > use of this as an identifier of notation-specific writing styles like "st. > gall" or "square neumes"? > > I just wanted to check because I seem to remember Perry and I having long > arguments over how to best capture this, and am surprised to see it there > now. :) > > -Andrew > > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca Tue Jun 21 17:41:38 2016 From: andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca (Andrew Hankinson) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 11:41:38 -0400 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name In-Reply-To: <5416_1466519640_57695057_5416_21_1_CAO3j9d91J-YDw=ENVkHyr0tJ_X0jUYRnVMvJ9i+j_MPP41PmCw@mail.gmail.com> References: <75224065-67E0-4F2E-A2FF-391F1883F2B8@mail.mcgill.ca> <5416_1466519640_57695057_5416_21_1_CAO3j9d91J-YDw=ENVkHyr0tJ_X0jUYRnVMvJ9i+j_MPP41PmCw@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13DA19BB-388B-41FE-9DED-1870DCA9FC54@mail.mcgill.ca> These are separate issues, I think. What Perry said in his previous e-mail is that, if we can come up with a list of style identifiers for neumes that we can categorize them into broad families. This is to help with, for example, a potential renderer, so that we can display neumes in st. gallen style, or in square style. Scribal features are best kept to a different set of tags in MEI -- the 'hand' element: http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/hand/ Capturing particular graphical features ("this scribe always puts a little jiggly thing at the end of their virga") would be much harder to describe systematically (that is, in an XML encoding hierarchy), and would arguably be better left to a graphical display standard, like SVG. But it depends on why you want to encode these things. Do you want to display the rendering exactly like the original page image? If so, why not just show the original image? Do you want to find the place where a particular scribe appears? Use the hand/handShift/handList elements. If you want to find a particular graphical correspondence between different MSS images, the notation encoding process is probably not the right place for this. That would probably be better left to a (theoretical) image comparison system directly, since it will be much more precise without also needing the work of somehow systematically capturing all the nuances of a particular scribe. > On Jun 21, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Debra Lacoste wrote: > > Hello everyone, > It's been interesting to follow these discussions. > I don't want to muddy the waters here, but I wonder if we can assign two elements? (if this element is the one that will describe the neumes at the level of the notational type, like "St Gall" or "French") > > We might want to (at some point) identify notational forms according to their graphical/scribal features (instead of or in addition to the more traditional geographical distinctions), or perhaps you're already planning this and I just haven't kept up. (If so, my apologies!) > > For example, "St Gall" neumes in the early books look a lot like "Messine" or "Laon" neumes (the latter lack the significative letters, but the ductus, size of the pen-nib, "swirliness" and other features are quite similar). Those same neumes show up in so-called "Klosterneuburg" notation in the 12th century, but by the 14th century the "Klosterneuburg" neumes are more "Gothic" in style, related perhaps to other "German" neumes. > > In my experience, palaeographic research in the 20th century generally separated neume styles according to their geographic origin (accompanied by geographic names, like "French", "Klosterneuburg", "Laon," etc.), but the computer will be able to spot identical shapes in books from a wide range of places in Europe. It could be that there is sometimes more of a connection between scribal styles of a particular *time* than of particular places. There is no doubt that some notations are specific to a particular place (Benevento, for example), but the notational style could still be assigned to a category of what the neumes look like (which would revolutionize the nomenclature of palaeography! ... No, I'm not sure I want to tackle that, but when all the individual neume-shapes are itemized and classified, I'm sure there will be duplicates in other notations and someone will take it on one day). > > If the element isn't the right place for a new name to denote a category of shapes that look similar, is there another tag where this could be entered? > > To be clear, this "scribal" identification I am suggesting is at the level of the notational style overall ... comparable to how we say "square neumes," "Gothic neumes", "German neumes", "Italian neumes", etc. but not tied to a geographical location. (For instance, "square neumes" is already perfect! It describes what it looks like, and the Franciscan mss from Italy show the same types of neumes and graphical features as mss from France with that notational style.) I can see such a description being applied at the level of the individual neume within any set of neumes from any place, and then connections across previously distinct notational styles will become more obvious. > > (and with enough samples the computer could determine whether or not the shape is similar enough and IT can uncover the connections between "Messine", "Klosterneuburg, "south-German" and "St Gall" neumes!) > > Sorry to be so long in describing this. It seems like the right time to consider the larger question of notational styles and how we perceive them, esp. since we are looking forward to branching out and working with manuscripts from France (Paris lat 12044 and 15181 -- with very different notations!) and perhaps some from Austria. > > Debra > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Debra Lacoste, Ph.D. > > | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca || > | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus || > | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor || > > | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca | > | debra.lacoste at gmail.com | > > On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) > wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > The element has been present since the earliest versions of MEI, although v. 2010-05 is when it got a camel-cased name. It can occur anywhere transcribed text is allowed. It's intended to be used to mark a stylistic term in para-text and metadata. is not a metadata "field" / container itself and therefore doesn't occur directly within the header, say in , because allowing it there would place it in competition with . > > However, 3.0.0 does provide a pair of new attributes on that can be used to describe the notation on each staff. The @notationtype may take the values "cmn", "mensural", "mensural.black", "mensural.white", "neume", and "tab", while @notationsubtype may take any textual value. If a 3-tiered classification is necessary for neume notation (like that provided for via the "mensural.black" and "mensural.white" values plus subtype) we can extend the value set for @notationtype. > > -- > p. > > __________________________ > Perry Roland > Music Library > University of Virginia > P. O. Box 400175 > Charlottesville, VA 22904 > 434-982-2702 (w) > pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu > ________________________________________ > From: mei-neumes-ig [mei-neumes-ig-bounces+pdr4h=eservices.virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de ] on behalf of Andrew Hankinson [andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca ] > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 1:31 PM > To: mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name > > Hi all (but esp. Perry): > > I was just perusing the new 3.0.0 guidelines, and noticed a new element: "". > > The documentation for it says "A label for a characteristic style of writing or performance, such as 'bebop' or 'rock-n-roll'." Is one possible use of this as an identifier of notation-specific writing styles like "st. gall" or "square neumes"? > > I just wanted to check because I seem to remember Perry and I having long arguments over how to best capture this, and am surprised to see it there now. :) > > -Andrew > > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca Tue Jun 21 18:13:41 2016 From: dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca (Debra Lacoste) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 12:13:41 -0400 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name In-Reply-To: <13DA19BB-388B-41FE-9DED-1870DCA9FC54@mail.mcgill.ca> References: <75224065-67E0-4F2E-A2FF-391F1883F2B8@mail.mcgill.ca> <5416_1466519640_57695057_5416_21_1_CAO3j9d91J-YDw=ENVkHyr0tJ_X0jUYRnVMvJ9i+j_MPP41PmCw@mail.gmail.com> <13DA19BB-388B-41FE-9DED-1870DCA9FC54@mail.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: Thanks for your message, Andrew. I was thinking more along the lines of the broad families, actually. It's the names that are problematic in my opinion, so I was thinking that instead of using solely the established names (i.e. "French", "St. Gall", "Messine", etc.), we could ALSO have a name that describes the look of the neumes. (My use of "scribal" wasn't intended to point to small and/or unique characteristics of a particular hand or style. Instead, I was leaning towards a new way to name notational styles that is based on "look" instead of location.) I have attached some examples of notations from all over Europe. They could be described in these ways: "slanted ductus, narrow nib" (or "slanted narrow"), "vertical ductus, narrow nib," "small square," etc. (we would have to make up the names). I see similarities in the first 4 examples, especially as compared to the other 3. Yet, they are all named in the literature as distinct notational styles. I was thinking that since we are still in the early stages here, we could have a place-holder for a different way to name the notational styles. It may or may not be adopted by researchers, but I think it *could* simplify the discussion surrounding neumes and possibly reduce the number of different types that are currently being distinguished. Just a thought! Debra ---------------------------------------------------- Debra Lacoste, Ph.D. | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca || | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus || | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor || | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca | | debra.lacoste at gmail.com | On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Hankinson < andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca> wrote: > > These are separate issues, I think. What Perry said in his previous e-mail > is that, if we can come up with a list of style identifiers for neumes that > we can categorize them into broad families. This is to help with, for > example, a potential renderer, so that we can display neumes in st. gallen > style, or in square style. > > Scribal features are best kept to a different set of tags in MEI -- the > 'hand' element: > > http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/hand/ > > Capturing particular graphical features ("this scribe always puts a little > jiggly thing at the end of their virga") would be much harder to describe > systematically (that is, in an XML encoding hierarchy), and would arguably > be better left to a graphical display standard, like SVG. > > But it depends on why you want to encode these things. Do you want to > display the rendering exactly like the original page image? If so, why not > just show the original image? Do you want to find the place where a > particular scribe appears? Use the hand/handShift/handList elements. > > If you want to find a particular graphical correspondence between > different MSS images, the notation encoding process is probably not the > right place for this. That would probably be better left to a (theoretical) > image comparison system directly, since it will be much more precise > without also needing the work of somehow systematically capturing all the > nuances of a particular scribe. > > On Jun 21, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Debra Lacoste wrote: > > Hello everyone, > It's been interesting to follow these discussions. > I don't want to muddy the waters here, but I wonder if we can assign two > elements? (if this element is the one that will describe the > neumes at the level of the notational type, like "St Gall" or "French") > > We might want to (at some point) identify notational forms according to > their graphical/scribal features (instead of or in addition to the more > traditional geographical distinctions), or perhaps you're already planning > this and I just haven't kept up. (If so, my apologies!) > > > For example, "St Gall" neumes in the early books look a lot like "Messine" > or "Laon" neumes (the latter lack the significative letters, but the > ductus, size of the pen-nib, "swirliness" and other features are quite > similar). Those same neumes show up in so-called "Klosterneuburg" notation > in the 12th century, but by the 14th century the "Klosterneuburg" neumes > are more "Gothic" in style, related perhaps to other "German" neumes. > > > In my experience, palaeographic research in the 20th century generally > separated neume styles according to their geographic origin (accompanied by > geographic names, like "French", "Klosterneuburg", "Laon," etc.), but the > computer will be able to spot identical shapes in books from a wide range > of places in Europe. It could be that there is sometimes more of a > connection between scribal styles of a particular *time* than of particular > places. There is no doubt that some notations are specific to a particular > place (Benevento, for example), but the notational style could still be > assigned to a category of what the neumes look like (which would > revolutionize the nomenclature of palaeography! ... No, I'm not sure I want > to tackle that, but when all the individual neume-shapes are itemized and > classified, I'm sure there will be duplicates in other notations and > someone will take it on one day). > > > If the element isn't the right place for a new name to denote > a category of shapes that look similar, is there another tag where this > could be entered? > > To be clear, this "scribal" identification I am suggesting is at the level > of the notational style overall ... comparable to how we say "square > neumes," "Gothic neumes", "German neumes", "Italian neumes", etc. but not > tied to a geographical location. (For instance, "square neumes" is already > perfect! It describes what it looks like, and the Franciscan mss from > Italy show the same types of neumes and graphical features as mss from > France with that notational style.) I can see such a description being > applied at the level of the individual neume within any set of neumes from > any place, and then connections across previously distinct notational > styles will become more obvious. > > (and with enough samples the computer could determine whether or not the > shape is similar enough and IT can uncover the connections between > "Messine", "Klosterneuburg, "south-German" and "St Gall" neumes!) > > Sorry to be so long in describing this. It seems like the right time to > consider the larger question of notational styles and how we perceive them, > esp. since we are looking forward to branching out and working with > manuscripts from France (Paris lat 12044 and 15181 -- with very different > notations!) and perhaps some from Austria. > > Debra > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Debra Lacoste, Ph.D. > > | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca || > | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus || > | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor || > > | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca | > | debra.lacoste at gmail.com | > > On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) < > pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu> wrote: > >> >> Hi Andrew, >> >> The element has been present since the earliest versions of >> MEI, although v. 2010-05 is when it got a camel-cased name. It can occur >> anywhere transcribed text is allowed. It's intended to be used to mark a >> stylistic term in para-text and metadata. is not a metadata >> "field" / container itself and therefore doesn't occur directly within the >> header, say in , because allowing it there would place it in >> competition with . >> >> However, 3.0.0 does provide a pair of new attributes on that >> can be used to describe the notation on each staff. The @notationtype may >> take the values "cmn", "mensural", "mensural.black", "mensural.white", >> "neume", and "tab", while @notationsubtype may take any textual value. If >> a 3-tiered classification is necessary for neume notation (like that >> provided for via the "mensural.black" and "mensural.white" values plus >> subtype) we can extend the value set for @notationtype. >> >> -- >> p. >> >> __________________________ >> Perry Roland >> Music Library >> University of Virginia >> P. O. Box 400175 >> Charlottesville, VA 22904 >> 434-982-2702 (w) >> pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu >> ________________________________________ >> From: mei-neumes-ig [mei-neumes-ig-bounces+pdr4h= >> eservices.virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de] on behalf of Andrew >> Hankinson [andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca] >> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 1:31 PM >> To: mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >> Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name >> >> Hi all (but esp. Perry): >> >> I was just perusing the new 3.0.0 guidelines, and noticed a new element: >> "". >> >> The documentation for it says "A label for a characteristic style of >> writing or performance, such as 'bebop' or 'rock-n-roll'." Is one possible >> use of this as an identifier of notation-specific writing styles like "st. >> gall" or "square neumes"? >> >> I just wanted to check because I seem to remember Perry and I having long >> arguments over how to best capture this, and am surprised to see it there >> now. :) >> >> -Andrew >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mei-neumes-ig mailing list >> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mei-neumes-ig mailing list >> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig >> > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: notational-style1.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 58030 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: notational-style2.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 44727 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: notational-style3.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 42739 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: notational-style4.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 82255 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: notational-style5.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 40470 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: notational-style6.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 28560 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: notational-style7.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 38205 bytes Desc: not available URL: From katehelsen at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 18:42:49 2016 From: katehelsen at gmail.com (Kate Helsen) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 12:42:49 -0400 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name In-Reply-To: References: <75224065-67E0-4F2E-A2FF-391F1883F2B8@mail.mcgill.ca> <5416_1466519640_57695057_5416_21_1_CAO3j9d91J-YDw=ENVkHyr0tJ_X0jUYRnVMvJ9i+j_MPP41PmCw@mail.gmail.com> <13DA19BB-388B-41FE-9DED-1870DCA9FC54@mail.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: Would this help? http://individual.utoronto.ca/notaquadrata/lexicon.html I can get in touch with John Haines about copyright of this, and perhaps he'd be happy to see it integrated into MEI terminology. (This was part of my post-doc life in Toronto, five years ago.) Cheers, Kate On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Debra Lacoste wrote: > Thanks for your message, Andrew. > I was thinking more along the lines of the broad families, actually. > > It's the names that are problematic in my opinion, so I was thinking that > instead of using solely the established names (i.e. "French", "St. Gall", > "Messine", etc.), we could ALSO have a name that describes the look of the > neumes. (My use of "scribal" wasn't intended to point to small and/or > unique characteristics of a particular hand or style. Instead, I was > leaning towards a new way to name notational styles that is based on "look" > instead of location.) > > I have attached some examples of notations from all over Europe. They > could be described in these ways: "slanted ductus, narrow nib" (or "slanted > narrow"), "vertical ductus, narrow nib," "small square," etc. (we would > have to make up the names). > I see similarities in the first 4 examples, especially as compared to the > other 3. Yet, they are all named in the literature as distinct notational > styles. > > I was thinking that since we are still in the early stages here, we could > have a place-holder for a different way to name the notational styles. It > may or may not be adopted by researchers, but I think it *could* simplify > the discussion surrounding neumes and possibly reduce the number of > different types that are currently being distinguished. > > Just a thought! > Debra > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Debra Lacoste, Ph.D. > > | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca || > | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus || > | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor || > > | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca | > | debra.lacoste at gmail.com | > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Hankinson < > andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca> wrote: > >> >> These are separate issues, I think. What Perry said in his previous >> e-mail is that, if we can come up with a list of style identifiers for >> neumes that we can categorize them into broad families. This is to help >> with, for example, a potential renderer, so that we can display neumes in >> st. gallen style, or in square style. >> >> Scribal features are best kept to a different set of tags in MEI -- the >> 'hand' element: >> >> http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/hand/ >> >> Capturing particular graphical features ("this scribe always puts a >> little jiggly thing at the end of their virga") would be much harder to >> describe systematically (that is, in an XML encoding hierarchy), and would >> arguably be better left to a graphical display standard, like SVG. >> >> But it depends on why you want to encode these things. Do you want to >> display the rendering exactly like the original page image? If so, why not >> just show the original image? Do you want to find the place where a >> particular scribe appears? Use the hand/handShift/handList elements. >> >> If you want to find a particular graphical correspondence between >> different MSS images, the notation encoding process is probably not the >> right place for this. That would probably be better left to a (theoretical) >> image comparison system directly, since it will be much more precise >> without also needing the work of somehow systematically capturing all the >> nuances of a particular scribe. >> >> On Jun 21, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Debra Lacoste >> wrote: >> >> Hello everyone, >> It's been interesting to follow these discussions. >> I don't want to muddy the waters here, but I wonder if we can assign two >> elements? (if this element is the one that will describe the >> neumes at the level of the notational type, like "St Gall" or "French") >> >> We might want to (at some point) identify notational forms according to >> their graphical/scribal features (instead of or in addition to the more >> traditional geographical distinctions), or perhaps you're already planning >> this and I just haven't kept up. (If so, my apologies!) >> >> >> For example, "St Gall" neumes in the early books look a lot like >> "Messine" or "Laon" neumes (the latter lack the significative letters, but >> the ductus, size of the pen-nib, "swirliness" and other features are quite >> similar). Those same neumes show up in so-called "Klosterneuburg" notation >> in the 12th century, but by the 14th century the "Klosterneuburg" neumes >> are more "Gothic" in style, related perhaps to other "German" neumes. >> >> >> In my experience, palaeographic research in the 20th century generally >> separated neume styles according to their geographic origin (accompanied by >> geographic names, like "French", "Klosterneuburg", "Laon," etc.), but the >> computer will be able to spot identical shapes in books from a wide range >> of places in Europe. It could be that there is sometimes more of a >> connection between scribal styles of a particular *time* than of particular >> places. There is no doubt that some notations are specific to a particular >> place (Benevento, for example), but the notational style could still be >> assigned to a category of what the neumes look like (which would >> revolutionize the nomenclature of palaeography! ... No, I'm not sure I want >> to tackle that, but when all the individual neume-shapes are itemized and >> classified, I'm sure there will be duplicates in other notations and >> someone will take it on one day). >> >> >> If the element isn't the right place for a new name to denote >> a category of shapes that look similar, is there another tag where this >> could be entered? >> >> To be clear, this "scribal" identification I am suggesting is at the >> level of the notational style overall ... comparable to how we say "square >> neumes," "Gothic neumes", "German neumes", "Italian neumes", etc. but not >> tied to a geographical location. (For instance, "square neumes" is already >> perfect! It describes what it looks like, and the Franciscan mss from >> Italy show the same types of neumes and graphical features as mss from >> France with that notational style.) I can see such a description being >> applied at the level of the individual neume within any set of neumes from >> any place, and then connections across previously distinct notational >> styles will become more obvious. >> >> (and with enough samples the computer could determine whether or not the >> shape is similar enough and IT can uncover the connections between >> "Messine", "Klosterneuburg, "south-German" and "St Gall" neumes!) >> >> Sorry to be so long in describing this. It seems like the right time to >> consider the larger question of notational styles and how we perceive them, >> esp. since we are looking forward to branching out and working with >> manuscripts from France (Paris lat 12044 and 15181 -- with very different >> notations!) and perhaps some from Austria. >> >> Debra >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------- >> Debra Lacoste, Ph.D. >> >> | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca || >> | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus || >> | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor || >> >> | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca | >> | debra.lacoste at gmail.com | >> >> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) < >> pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu> wrote: >> >>> >>> Hi Andrew, >>> >>> The element has been present since the earliest versions of >>> MEI, although v. 2010-05 is when it got a camel-cased name. It can occur >>> anywhere transcribed text is allowed. It's intended to be used to mark a >>> stylistic term in para-text and metadata. is not a metadata >>> "field" / container itself and therefore doesn't occur directly within the >>> header, say in , because allowing it there would place it in >>> competition with . >>> >>> However, 3.0.0 does provide a pair of new attributes on that >>> can be used to describe the notation on each staff. The @notationtype may >>> take the values "cmn", "mensural", "mensural.black", "mensural.white", >>> "neume", and "tab", while @notationsubtype may take any textual value. If >>> a 3-tiered classification is necessary for neume notation (like that >>> provided for via the "mensural.black" and "mensural.white" values plus >>> subtype) we can extend the value set for @notationtype. >>> >>> -- >>> p. >>> >>> __________________________ >>> Perry Roland >>> Music Library >>> University of Virginia >>> P. O. Box 400175 >>> Charlottesville, VA 22904 >>> 434-982-2702 (w) >>> pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: mei-neumes-ig [mei-neumes-ig-bounces+pdr4h= >>> eservices.virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de] on behalf of Andrew >>> Hankinson [andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca] >>> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 1:31 PM >>> To: mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >>> Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name >>> >>> Hi all (but esp. Perry): >>> >>> I was just perusing the new 3.0.0 guidelines, and noticed a new element: >>> "". >>> >>> The documentation for it says "A label for a characteristic style of >>> writing or performance, such as 'bebop' or 'rock-n-roll'." Is one possible >>> use of this as an identifier of notation-specific writing styles like "st. >>> gall" or "square neumes"? >>> >>> I just wanted to check because I seem to remember Perry and I having >>> long arguments over how to best capture this, and am surprised to see it >>> there now. :) >>> >>> -Andrew >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> mei-neumes-ig mailing list >>> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >>> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> mei-neumes-ig mailing list >>> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >>> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mei-neumes-ig mailing list >> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca Tue Jun 21 18:48:55 2016 From: dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca (Debra Lacoste) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 12:48:55 -0400 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name In-Reply-To: References: <75224065-67E0-4F2E-A2FF-391F1883F2B8@mail.mcgill.ca> <5416_1466519640_57695057_5416_21_1_CAO3j9d91J-YDw=ENVkHyr0tJ_X0jUYRnVMvJ9i+j_MPP41PmCw@mail.gmail.com> <13DA19BB-388B-41FE-9DED-1870DCA9FC54@mail.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: Thanks Kate! We could use these terms to make up new "neume family names" as alternates to the geographical names. (... if we were cool with the idea to add an alternate terminology to notational styles/families). Deb ---------------------------------------------------- Debra Lacoste, Ph.D. | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca || | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus || | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor || | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca | | debra.lacoste at gmail.com | On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 12:42 PM, Kate Helsen wrote: > Would this help? > http://individual.utoronto.ca/notaquadrata/lexicon.html > > I can get in touch with John Haines about copyright of this, and perhaps > he'd be happy to see it integrated into MEI terminology. (This was part of > my post-doc life in Toronto, five years ago.) > > Cheers, > Kate > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Debra Lacoste > wrote: > >> Thanks for your message, Andrew. >> I was thinking more along the lines of the broad families, actually. >> >> It's the names that are problematic in my opinion, so I was thinking that >> instead of using solely the established names (i.e. "French", "St. Gall", >> "Messine", etc.), we could ALSO have a name that describes the look of the >> neumes. (My use of "scribal" wasn't intended to point to small and/or >> unique characteristics of a particular hand or style. Instead, I was >> leaning towards a new way to name notational styles that is based on "look" >> instead of location.) >> >> I have attached some examples of notations from all over Europe. They >> could be described in these ways: "slanted ductus, narrow nib" (or "slanted >> narrow"), "vertical ductus, narrow nib," "small square," etc. (we would >> have to make up the names). >> I see similarities in the first 4 examples, especially as compared to the >> other 3. Yet, they are all named in the literature as distinct notational >> styles. >> >> I was thinking that since we are still in the early stages here, we could >> have a place-holder for a different way to name the notational styles. It >> may or may not be adopted by researchers, but I think it *could* simplify >> the discussion surrounding neumes and possibly reduce the number of >> different types that are currently being distinguished. >> >> Just a thought! >> Debra >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------- >> Debra Lacoste, Ph.D. >> >> | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca || >> | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus || >> | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor || >> >> | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca | >> | debra.lacoste at gmail.com | >> >> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Hankinson < >> andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca> wrote: >> >>> >>> These are separate issues, I think. What Perry said in his previous >>> e-mail is that, if we can come up with a list of style identifiers for >>> neumes that we can categorize them into broad families. This is to help >>> with, for example, a potential renderer, so that we can display neumes in >>> st. gallen style, or in square style. >>> >>> Scribal features are best kept to a different set of tags in MEI -- the >>> 'hand' element: >>> >>> http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/hand/ >>> >>> Capturing particular graphical features ("this scribe always puts a >>> little jiggly thing at the end of their virga") would be much harder to >>> describe systematically (that is, in an XML encoding hierarchy), and would >>> arguably be better left to a graphical display standard, like SVG. >>> >>> But it depends on why you want to encode these things. Do you want to >>> display the rendering exactly like the original page image? If so, why not >>> just show the original image? Do you want to find the place where a >>> particular scribe appears? Use the hand/handShift/handList elements. >>> >>> If you want to find a particular graphical correspondence between >>> different MSS images, the notation encoding process is probably not the >>> right place for this. That would probably be better left to a (theoretical) >>> image comparison system directly, since it will be much more precise >>> without also needing the work of somehow systematically capturing all the >>> nuances of a particular scribe. >>> >>> On Jun 21, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Debra Lacoste >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello everyone, >>> It's been interesting to follow these discussions. >>> I don't want to muddy the waters here, but I wonder if we can assign two >>> elements? (if this element is the one that will describe the >>> neumes at the level of the notational type, like "St Gall" or "French") >>> >>> We might want to (at some point) identify notational forms according to >>> their graphical/scribal features (instead of or in addition to the more >>> traditional geographical distinctions), or perhaps you're already planning >>> this and I just haven't kept up. (If so, my apologies!) >>> >>> >>> For example, "St Gall" neumes in the early books look a lot like >>> "Messine" or "Laon" neumes (the latter lack the significative letters, but >>> the ductus, size of the pen-nib, "swirliness" and other features are quite >>> similar). Those same neumes show up in so-called "Klosterneuburg" notation >>> in the 12th century, but by the 14th century the "Klosterneuburg" neumes >>> are more "Gothic" in style, related perhaps to other "German" neumes. >>> >>> >>> In my experience, palaeographic research in the 20th century generally >>> separated neume styles according to their geographic origin (accompanied by >>> geographic names, like "French", "Klosterneuburg", "Laon," etc.), but the >>> computer will be able to spot identical shapes in books from a wide range >>> of places in Europe. It could be that there is sometimes more of a >>> connection between scribal styles of a particular *time* than of particular >>> places. There is no doubt that some notations are specific to a particular >>> place (Benevento, for example), but the notational style could still be >>> assigned to a category of what the neumes look like (which would >>> revolutionize the nomenclature of palaeography! ... No, I'm not sure I want >>> to tackle that, but when all the individual neume-shapes are itemized and >>> classified, I'm sure there will be duplicates in other notations and >>> someone will take it on one day). >>> >>> >>> If the element isn't the right place for a new name to >>> denote a category of shapes that look similar, is there another tag where >>> this could be entered? >>> >>> To be clear, this "scribal" identification I am suggesting is at the >>> level of the notational style overall ... comparable to how we say "square >>> neumes," "Gothic neumes", "German neumes", "Italian neumes", etc. but not >>> tied to a geographical location. (For instance, "square neumes" is already >>> perfect! It describes what it looks like, and the Franciscan mss from >>> Italy show the same types of neumes and graphical features as mss from >>> France with that notational style.) I can see such a description being >>> applied at the level of the individual neume within any set of neumes from >>> any place, and then connections across previously distinct notational >>> styles will become more obvious. >>> >>> (and with enough samples the computer could determine whether or not the >>> shape is similar enough and IT can uncover the connections between >>> "Messine", "Klosterneuburg, "south-German" and "St Gall" neumes!) >>> >>> Sorry to be so long in describing this. It seems like the right time to >>> consider the larger question of notational styles and how we perceive them, >>> esp. since we are looking forward to branching out and working with >>> manuscripts from France (Paris lat 12044 and 15181 -- with very different >>> notations!) and perhaps some from Austria. >>> >>> Debra >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>> Debra Lacoste, Ph.D. >>> >>> | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca || >>> | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus || >>> | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor || >>> >>> | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca | >>> | debra.lacoste at gmail.com | >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) < >>> pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hi Andrew, >>>> >>>> The element has been present since the earliest versions of >>>> MEI, although v. 2010-05 is when it got a camel-cased name. It can occur >>>> anywhere transcribed text is allowed. It's intended to be used to mark a >>>> stylistic term in para-text and metadata. is not a metadata >>>> "field" / container itself and therefore doesn't occur directly within the >>>> header, say in , because allowing it there would place it in >>>> competition with . >>>> >>>> However, 3.0.0 does provide a pair of new attributes on that >>>> can be used to describe the notation on each staff. The @notationtype may >>>> take the values "cmn", "mensural", "mensural.black", "mensural.white", >>>> "neume", and "tab", while @notationsubtype may take any textual value. If >>>> a 3-tiered classification is necessary for neume notation (like that >>>> provided for via the "mensural.black" and "mensural.white" values plus >>>> subtype) we can extend the value set for @notationtype. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> p. >>>> >>>> __________________________ >>>> Perry Roland >>>> Music Library >>>> University of Virginia >>>> P. O. Box 400175 >>>> Charlottesville, VA 22904 >>>> 434-982-2702 (w) >>>> pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: mei-neumes-ig [mei-neumes-ig-bounces+pdr4h= >>>> eservices.virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de] on behalf of Andrew >>>> Hankinson [andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca] >>>> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 1:31 PM >>>> To: mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >>>> Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name >>>> >>>> Hi all (but esp. Perry): >>>> >>>> I was just perusing the new 3.0.0 guidelines, and noticed a new >>>> element: "". >>>> >>>> The documentation for it says "A label for a characteristic style of >>>> writing or performance, such as 'bebop' or 'rock-n-roll'." Is one possible >>>> use of this as an identifier of notation-specific writing styles like "st. >>>> gall" or "square neumes"? >>>> >>>> I just wanted to check because I seem to remember Perry and I having >>>> long arguments over how to best capture this, and am surprised to see it >>>> there now. :) >>>> >>>> -Andrew >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> mei-neumes-ig mailing list >>>> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >>>> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> mei-neumes-ig mailing list >>>> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >>>> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> mei-neumes-ig mailing list >>> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >>> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mei-neumes-ig mailing list >> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu Tue Jun 21 20:02:02 2016 From: pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu (Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h)) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 18:02:02 +0000 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name In-Reply-To: References: <75224065-67E0-4F2E-A2FF-391F1883F2B8@mail.mcgill.ca> <5416_1466519640_57695057_5416_21_1_CAO3j9d91J-YDw=ENVkHyr0tJ_X0jUYRnVMvJ9i+j_MPP41PmCw@mail.gmail.com> <13DA19BB-388B-41FE-9DED-1870DCA9FC54@mail.mcgill.ca> , Message-ID: The elements exists to avoid integrating thesauri / ontologies into MEI. With this approach, there can be any number of external classification schemes. MEI only needs to provide a mechanism by which elements of the markup, like can be associated with a term. -- p. __________________________ Perry Roland Music Library University of Virginia P. O. Box 400175 Charlottesville, VA 22904 434-982-2702 (w) pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu ________________________________ From: mei-neumes-ig [mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] on behalf of Kate Helsen [katehelsen at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 12:43 PM To: Debra Lacoste; Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative Subject: Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name Would this help? http://individual.utoronto.ca/notaquadrata/lexicon.html I can get in touch with John Haines about copyright of this, and perhaps he'd be happy to see it integrated into MEI terminology. (This was part of my post-doc life in Toronto, five years ago.) Cheers, Kate On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Debra Lacoste > wrote: Thanks for your message, Andrew. I was thinking more along the lines of the broad families, actually. It's the names that are problematic in my opinion, so I was thinking that instead of using solely the established names (i.e. "French", "St. Gall", "Messine", etc.), we could ALSO have a name that describes the look of the neumes. (My use of "scribal" wasn't intended to point to small and/or unique characteristics of a particular hand or style. Instead, I was leaning towards a new way to name notational styles that is based on "look" instead of location.) I have attached some examples of notations from all over Europe. They could be described in these ways: "slanted ductus, narrow nib" (or "slanted narrow"), "vertical ductus, narrow nib," "small square," etc. (we would have to make up the names). I see similarities in the first 4 examples, especially as compared to the other 3. Yet, they are all named in the literature as distinct notational styles. I was thinking that since we are still in the early stages here, we could have a place-holder for a different way to name the notational styles. It may or may not be adopted by researchers, but I think it *could* simplify the discussion surrounding neumes and possibly reduce the number of different types that are currently being distinguished. Just a thought! Debra ---------------------------------------------------- Debra Lacoste, Ph.D. | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca || | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus || | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor || | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca | | debra.lacoste at gmail.com | On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Hankinson > wrote: These are separate issues, I think. What Perry said in his previous e-mail is that, if we can come up with a list of style identifiers for neumes that we can categorize them into broad families. This is to help with, for example, a potential renderer, so that we can display neumes in st. gallen style, or in square style. Scribal features are best kept to a different set of tags in MEI -- the 'hand' element: http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/hand/ Capturing particular graphical features ("this scribe always puts a little jiggly thing at the end of their virga") would be much harder to describe systematically (that is, in an XML encoding hierarchy), and would arguably be better left to a graphical display standard, like SVG. But it depends on why you want to encode these things. Do you want to display the rendering exactly like the original page image? If so, why not just show the original image? Do you want to find the place where a particular scribe appears? Use the hand/handShift/handList elements. If you want to find a particular graphical correspondence between different MSS images, the notation encoding process is probably not the right place for this. That would probably be better left to a (theoretical) image comparison system directly, since it will be much more precise without also needing the work of somehow systematically capturing all the nuances of a particular scribe. On Jun 21, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Debra Lacoste > wrote: Hello everyone, It's been interesting to follow these discussions. I don't want to muddy the waters here, but I wonder if we can assign two elements? (if this element is the one that will describe the neumes at the level of the notational type, like "St Gall" or "French") We might want to (at some point) identify notational forms according to their graphical/scribal features (instead of or in addition to the more traditional geographical distinctions), or perhaps you're already planning this and I just haven't kept up. (If so, my apologies!) For example, "St Gall" neumes in the early books look a lot like "Messine" or "Laon" neumes (the latter lack the significative letters, but the ductus, size of the pen-nib, "swirliness" and other features are quite similar). Those same neumes show up in so-called "Klosterneuburg" notation in the 12th century, but by the 14th century the "Klosterneuburg" neumes are more "Gothic" in style, related perhaps to other "German" neumes. In my experience, palaeographic research in the 20th century generally separated neume styles according to their geographic origin (accompanied by geographic names, like "French", "Klosterneuburg", "Laon," etc.), but the computer will be able to spot identical shapes in books from a wide range of places in Europe. It could be that there is sometimes more of a connection between scribal styles of a particular *time* than of particular places. There is no doubt that some notations are specific to a particular place (Benevento, for example), but the notational style could still be assigned to a category of what the neumes look like (which would revolutionize the nomenclature of palaeography! ... No, I'm not sure I want to tackle that, but when all the individual neume-shapes are itemized and classified, I'm sure there will be duplicates in other notations and someone will take it on one day). If the element isn't the right place for a new name to denote a category of shapes that look similar, is there another tag where this could be entered? To be clear, this "scribal" identification I am suggesting is at the level of the notational style overall ... comparable to how we say "square neumes," "Gothic neumes", "German neumes", "Italian neumes", etc. but not tied to a geographical location. (For instance, "square neumes" is already perfect! It describes what it looks like, and the Franciscan mss from Italy show the same types of neumes and graphical features as mss from France with that notational style.) I can see such a description being applied at the level of the individual neume within any set of neumes from any place, and then connections across previously distinct notational styles will become more obvious. (and with enough samples the computer could determine whether or not the shape is similar enough and IT can uncover the connections between "Messine", "Klosterneuburg, "south-German" and "St Gall" neumes!) Sorry to be so long in describing this. It seems like the right time to consider the larger question of notational styles and how we perceive them, esp. since we are looking forward to branching out and working with manuscripts from France (Paris lat 12044 and 15181 -- with very different notations!) and perhaps some from Austria. Debra ---------------------------------------------------- Debra Lacoste, Ph.D. | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca || | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus || | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor || | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca | | debra.lacoste at gmail.com | On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) > wrote: Hi Andrew, The element has been present since the earliest versions of MEI, although v. 2010-05 is when it got a camel-cased name. It can occur anywhere transcribed text is allowed. It's intended to be used to mark a stylistic term in para-text and metadata. is not a metadata "field" / container itself and therefore doesn't occur directly within the header, say in , because allowing it there would place it in competition with . However, 3.0.0 does provide a pair of new attributes on that can be used to describe the notation on each staff. The @notationtype may take the values "cmn", "mensural", "mensural.black", "mensural.white", "neume", and "tab", while @notationsubtype may take any textual value. If a 3-tiered classification is necessary for neume notation (like that provided for via the "mensural.black" and "mensural.white" values plus subtype) we can extend the value set for @notationtype. -- p. __________________________ Perry Roland Music Library University of Virginia P. O. Box 400175 Charlottesville, VA 22904 434-982-2702 (w) pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu ________________________________________ From: mei-neumes-ig [mei-neumes-ig-bounces+pdr4h=eservices.virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de] on behalf of Andrew Hankinson [andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca] Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 1:31 PM To: mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name Hi all (but esp. Perry): I was just perusing the new 3.0.0 guidelines, and noticed a new element: "". The documentation for it says "A label for a characteristic style of writing or performance, such as 'bebop' or 'rock-n-roll'." Is one possible use of this as an identifier of notation-specific writing styles like "st. gall" or "square neumes"? I just wanted to check because I seem to remember Perry and I having long arguments over how to best capture this, and am surprised to see it there now. :) -Andrew _______________________________________________ mei-neumes-ig mailing list mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig _______________________________________________ mei-neumes-ig mailing list mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig _______________________________________________ mei-neumes-ig mailing list mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig _______________________________________________ mei-neumes-ig mailing list mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From inga.behrendt at uni-tuebingen.de Tue Jun 21 21:59:15 2016 From: inga.behrendt at uni-tuebingen.de (Inga Behrendt) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 21:59:15 +0200 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name In-Reply-To: References: <75224065-67E0-4F2E-A2FF-391F1883F2B8@mail.mcgill.ca> <5416_1466519640_57695057_5416_21_1_CAO3j9d91J-YDw=ENVkHyr0tJ_X0jUYRnVMvJ9i+j_MPP41PmCw@mail.gmail.com> <13DA19BB-388B-41FE-9DED-1870DCA9FC54@mail.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: <20160621215915.Horde.rYvba6xIt2AuDg981f5G1aS@webmail.uni-tuebingen.de> Hello! There are lots of categories for neume families (of course everybody knows). I just bring it back to mind: a staffless or on staffs / adiastematic or diastematic b and the notation on lines can be devided into nail notation or square notation and others c families sorted by location (Beneventan notation, neumes from St. Gall...) d families sorted by systematic - Punktnotation (like e. g. Aquitanian notation) and Akzentnotation (German neume notation, e. g. St. Gall notation in neumes), both can be diastematic/on lines or adiastematic/without lines e handwritten (Flexibel in the vertical/horizontal ductus) or printed (steretyped) f more round, more angled g sorted in chronological order I use most of the time c, d and g. :) Does that help in the diskussion? Herzlich! :) Inga Zitat von "Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h)" : > The elements exists to avoid integrating thesauri / > ontologies into MEI. With this approach, there can be any number of > external classification schemes. MEI only needs to provide a > mechanism by which elements of the markup, like can be > associated with a term. > > -- > p. > > __________________________ > Perry Roland > Music Library > University of Virginia > P. O. Box 400175 > Charlottesville, VA 22904 > 434-982-2702 (w) > pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu > ________________________________ > From: mei-neumes-ig [mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] > on behalf of Kate Helsen [katehelsen at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 12:43 PM > To: Debra Lacoste; Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative > Subject: Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name > > Would this help? > http://individual.utoronto.ca/notaquadrata/lexicon.html > > I can get in touch with John Haines about copyright of this, and > perhaps he'd be happy to see it integrated into MEI terminology. > (This was part of my post-doc life in Toronto, five years ago.) > > Cheers, > Kate > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Debra Lacoste > > > wrote: > Thanks for your message, Andrew. > I was thinking more along the lines of the broad families, actually. > > It's the names that are problematic in my opinion, so I was thinking > that instead of using solely the established names (i.e. "French", > "St. Gall", "Messine", etc.), we could ALSO have a name that > describes the look of the neumes. (My use of "scribal" wasn't > intended to point to small and/or unique characteristics of a > particular hand or style. Instead, I was leaning towards a new way > to name notational styles that is based on "look" instead of > location.) > > I have attached some examples of notations from all over Europe. > They could be described in these ways: "slanted ductus, narrow nib" > (or "slanted narrow"), "vertical ductus, narrow nib," "small > square," etc. (we would have to make up the names). > I see similarities in the first 4 examples, especially as compared > to the other 3. Yet, they are all named in the literature as > distinct notational styles. > > I was thinking that since we are still in the early stages here, we > could have a place-holder for a different way to name the notational > styles. It may or may not be adopted by researchers, but I think it > *could* simplify the discussion surrounding neumes and possibly > reduce the number of different types that are currently being > distinguished. > > Just a thought! > Debra > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Debra Lacoste, Ph.D. > > | Cantus Database | > http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca > || > | also > https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus > || > | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor || > > | > dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca > | > | > debra.lacoste at gmail.com > | > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Hankinson > > > wrote: > > These are separate issues, I think. What Perry said in his previous > e-mail is that, if we can come up with a list of style identifiers > for neumes that we can categorize them into broad families. This is > to help with, for example, a potential renderer, so that we can > display neumes in st. gallen style, or in square style. > > Scribal features are best kept to a different set of tags in MEI -- > the 'hand' element: > > http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/hand/ > > Capturing particular graphical features ("this scribe always puts a > little jiggly thing at the end of their virga") would be much harder > to describe systematically (that is, in an XML encoding hierarchy), > and would arguably be better left to a graphical display standard, > like SVG. > > But it depends on why you want to encode these things. Do you want > to display the rendering exactly like the original page image? If > so, why not just show the original image? Do you want to find the > place where a particular scribe appears? Use the > hand/handShift/handList elements. > > If you want to find a particular graphical correspondence between > different MSS images, the notation encoding process is probably not > the right place for this. That would probably be better left to a > (theoretical) image comparison system directly, since it will be > much more precise without also needing the work of somehow > systematically capturing all the nuances of a particular scribe. > > On Jun 21, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Debra Lacoste > > > wrote: > > Hello everyone, > It's been interesting to follow these discussions. > I don't want to muddy the waters here, but I wonder if we can assign > two elements? (if this element is the one that will > describe the neumes at the level of the notational type, like "St > Gall" or "French") > > We might want to (at some point) identify notational forms according > to their graphical/scribal features (instead of or in addition to > the more traditional geographical distinctions), or perhaps you're > already planning this and I just haven't kept up. (If so, my > apologies!) > > For example, "St Gall" neumes in the early books look a lot like > "Messine" or "Laon" neumes (the latter lack the significative > letters, but the ductus, size of the pen-nib, "swirliness" and other > features are quite similar). Those same neumes show up in so-called > "Klosterneuburg" notation in the 12th century, but by the 14th > century the "Klosterneuburg" neumes are more "Gothic" in style, > related perhaps to other "German" neumes. > > In my experience, palaeographic research in the 20th century > generally separated neume styles according to their geographic > origin (accompanied by geographic names, like "French", > "Klosterneuburg", "Laon," etc.), but the computer will be able to > spot identical shapes in books from a wide range of places in > Europe. It could be that there is sometimes more of a connection > between scribal styles of a particular *time* than of particular > places. There is no doubt that some notations are specific to a > particular place (Benevento, for example), but the notational style > could still be assigned to a category of what the neumes look like > (which would revolutionize the nomenclature of palaeography! ... No, > I'm not sure I want to tackle that, but when all the individual > neume-shapes are itemized and classified, I'm sure there will be > duplicates in other notations and someone will take it on one day). > > If the element isn't the right place for a new name to > denote a category of shapes that look similar, is there another tag > where this could be entered? > > To be clear, this "scribal" identification I am suggesting is at the > level of the notational style overall ... comparable to how we say > "square neumes," "Gothic neumes", "German neumes", "Italian neumes", > etc. but not tied to a geographical location. (For instance, "square > neumes" is already perfect! It describes what it looks like, and > the Franciscan mss from Italy show the same types of neumes and > graphical features as mss from France with that notational style.) > I can see such a description being applied at the level of the > individual neume within any set of neumes from any place, and then > connections across previously distinct notational styles will become > more obvious. > > (and with enough samples the computer could determine whether or not > the shape is similar enough and IT can uncover the connections > between "Messine", "Klosterneuburg, "south-German" and "St Gall" > neumes!) > > Sorry to be so long in describing this. It seems like the right > time to consider the larger question of notational styles and how we > perceive them, esp. since we are looking forward to branching out > and working with manuscripts from France (Paris lat 12044 and 15181 > -- with very different notations!) and perhaps some from Austria. > > Debra > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Debra Lacoste, Ph.D. > > | Cantus Database | > http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca > || > | also > https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus > || > | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor || > > | > dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca > | > | > debra.lacoste at gmail.com > | > > On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) > > > wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > The element has been present since the earliest versions > of MEI, although v. 2010-05 is when it got a camel-cased name. It > can occur anywhere transcribed text is allowed. It's intended to be > used to mark a stylistic term in para-text and metadata. > is not a metadata "field" / container itself and > therefore doesn't occur directly within the header, say in > , because allowing it there would place it in > competition with . > > However, 3.0.0 does provide a pair of new attributes on > that can be used to describe the notation on each staff. The > @notationtype may take the values "cmn", "mensural", > "mensural.black", "mensural.white", "neume", and "tab", while > @notationsubtype may take any textual value. If a 3-tiered > classification is necessary for neume notation (like that provided > for via the "mensural.black" and "mensural.white" values plus > subtype) we can extend the value set for @notationtype. > > -- > p. > > __________________________ > Perry Roland > Music Library > University of Virginia > P. O. Box 400175 > Charlottesville, VA 22904 > 434-982-2702 (w) > pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu > ________________________________________ > From: mei-neumes-ig > [mei-neumes-ig-bounces+pdr4h=eservices.virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de] on behalf of Andrew Hankinson > [andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca] > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 1:31 PM > To: > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name > > Hi all (but esp. Perry): > > I was just perusing the new 3.0.0 guidelines, and noticed a new > element: "". > > The documentation for it says "A label for a characteristic style of > writing or performance, such as 'bebop' or 'rock-n-roll'." Is one > possible use of this as an identifier of notation-specific writing > styles like "st. gall" or "square neumes"? > > I just wanted to check because I seem to remember Perry and I having > long arguments over how to best capture this, and am surprised to > see it there now. :) > > -Andrew > > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > > > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig From dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca Tue Jun 21 22:03:03 2016 From: dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca (Debra Lacoste) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 16:03:03 -0400 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name In-Reply-To: References: <75224065-67E0-4F2E-A2FF-391F1883F2B8@mail.mcgill.ca> <5416_1466519640_57695057_5416_21_1_CAO3j9d91J-YDw=ENVkHyr0tJ_X0jUYRnVMvJ9i+j_MPP41PmCw@mail.gmail.com> <13DA19BB-388B-41FE-9DED-1870DCA9FC54@mail.mcgill.ca> Message-ID: Thanks Perry! That sounds like the place for notational style terms (old or new). And, I'm assuming that new classifications can be a later addition, so we don't have to consider it right away. All the best, Debra ---------------------------------------------------- Debra Lacoste, Ph.D. | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca || | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus || | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor || | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca | | debra.lacoste at gmail.com | On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 2:02 PM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) < pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu> wrote: > > The elements exists to avoid integrating thesauri / > ontologies into MEI. With this approach, there can be any number of > external classification schemes. MEI only needs to provide a mechanism by > which elements of the markup, like can be associated with a term. > > -- > p. > > __________________________ > Perry Roland > Music Library > University of Virginia > P. O. Box 400175 > Charlottesville, VA 22904 > 434-982-2702 (w) > pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu > ------------------------------ > *From:* mei-neumes-ig [mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] on > behalf of Kate Helsen [katehelsen at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 21, 2016 12:43 PM > *To:* Debra Lacoste; Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding > Initiative > *Subject:* Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name > > Would this help? > http://individual.utoronto.ca/notaquadrata/lexicon.html > > > I can get in touch with John Haines about copyright of this, and perhaps > he'd be happy to see it integrated into MEI terminology. (This was part of > my post-doc life in Toronto, five years ago.) > > Cheers, > Kate > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Debra Lacoste > > wrote: > >> Thanks for your message, Andrew. >> I was thinking more along the lines of the broad families, actually. >> >> It's the names that are problematic in my opinion, so I was thinking that >> instead of using solely the established names (i.e. "French", "St. Gall", >> "Messine", etc.), we could ALSO have a name that describes the look of the >> neumes. (My use of "scribal" wasn't intended to point to small and/or >> unique characteristics of a particular hand or style. Instead, I was >> leaning towards a new way to name notational styles that is based on "look" >> instead of location.) >> >> I have attached some examples of notations from all over Europe. They >> could be described in these ways: "slanted ductus, narrow nib" (or "slanted >> narrow"), "vertical ductus, narrow nib," "small square," etc. (we would >> have to make up the names). >> I see similarities in the first 4 examples, especially as compared to the >> other 3. Yet, they are all named in the literature as distinct notational >> styles. >> >> I was thinking that since we are still in the early stages here, we could >> have a place-holder for a different way to name the notational styles. It >> may or may not be adopted by researchers, but I think it *could* simplify >> the discussion surrounding neumes and possibly reduce the number of >> different types that are currently being distinguished. >> >> Just a thought! >> Debra >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------- >> Debra Lacoste, Ph.D. >> >> | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca >> >> || >> | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus >> >> || >> | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor || >> >> | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca >> >> | >> | debra.lacoste at gmail.com >> >> | >> >> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Hankinson < >> andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca >> >> > wrote: >> >>> >>> These are separate issues, I think. What Perry said in his previous >>> e-mail is that, if we can come up with a list of style identifiers for >>> neumes that we can categorize them into broad families. This is to help >>> with, for example, a potential renderer, so that we can display neumes in >>> st. gallen style, or in square style. >>> >>> Scribal features are best kept to a different set of tags in MEI -- the >>> 'hand' element: >>> >>> http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/hand/ >>> >>> >>> Capturing particular graphical features ("this scribe always puts a >>> little jiggly thing at the end of their virga") would be much harder to >>> describe systematically (that is, in an XML encoding hierarchy), and would >>> arguably be better left to a graphical display standard, like SVG. >>> >>> But it depends on why you want to encode these things. Do you want to >>> display the rendering exactly like the original page image? If so, why not >>> just show the original image? Do you want to find the place where a >>> particular scribe appears? Use the hand/handShift/handList elements. >>> >>> If you want to find a particular graphical correspondence between >>> different MSS images, the notation encoding process is probably not the >>> right place for this. That would probably be better left to a (theoretical) >>> image comparison system directly, since it will be much more precise >>> without also needing the work of somehow systematically capturing all the >>> nuances of a particular scribe. >>> >>> On Jun 21, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Debra Lacoste >> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello everyone, >>> It's been interesting to follow these discussions. >>> I don't want to muddy the waters here, but I wonder if we can assign two >>> elements? (if this element is the one that will describe the >>> neumes at the level of the notational type, like "St Gall" or "French") >>> >>> We might want to (at some point) identify notational forms according to >>> their graphical/scribal features (instead of or in addition to the more >>> traditional geographical distinctions), or perhaps you're already planning >>> this and I just haven't kept up. (If so, my apologies!) >>> >>> >>> For example, "St Gall" neumes in the early books look a lot like >>> "Messine" or "Laon" neumes (the latter lack the significative letters, but >>> the ductus, size of the pen-nib, "swirliness" and other features are quite >>> similar). Those same neumes show up in so-called "Klosterneuburg" notation >>> in the 12th century, but by the 14th century the "Klosterneuburg" neumes >>> are more "Gothic" in style, related perhaps to other "German" neumes. >>> >>> >>> In my experience, palaeographic research in the 20th century generally >>> separated neume styles according to their geographic origin (accompanied by >>> geographic names, like "French", "Klosterneuburg", "Laon," etc.), but the >>> computer will be able to spot identical shapes in books from a wide range >>> of places in Europe. It could be that there is sometimes more of a >>> connection between scribal styles of a particular *time* than of particular >>> places. There is no doubt that some notations are specific to a particular >>> place (Benevento, for example), but the notational style could still be >>> assigned to a category of what the neumes look like (which would >>> revolutionize the nomenclature of palaeography! ... No, I'm not sure I want >>> to tackle that, but when all the individual neume-shapes are itemized and >>> classified, I'm sure there will be duplicates in other notations and >>> someone will take it on one day). >>> >>> >>> If the element isn't the right place for a new name to >>> denote a category of shapes that look similar, is there another tag where >>> this could be entered? >>> >>> To be clear, this "scribal" identification I am suggesting is at the >>> level of the notational style overall ... comparable to how we say "square >>> neumes," "Gothic neumes", "German neumes", "Italian neumes", etc. but not >>> tied to a geographical location. (For instance, "square neumes" is already >>> perfect! It describes what it looks like, and the Franciscan mss from >>> Italy show the same types of neumes and graphical features as mss from >>> France with that notational style.) I can see such a description being >>> applied at the level of the individual neume within any set of neumes from >>> any place, and then connections across previously distinct notational >>> styles will become more obvious. >>> >>> (and with enough samples the computer could determine whether or not the >>> shape is similar enough and IT can uncover the connections between >>> "Messine", "Klosterneuburg, "south-German" and "St Gall" neumes!) >>> >>> Sorry to be so long in describing this. It seems like the right time to >>> consider the larger question of notational styles and how we perceive them, >>> esp. since we are looking forward to branching out and working with >>> manuscripts from France (Paris lat 12044 and 15181 -- with very different >>> notations!) and perhaps some from Austria. >>> >>> Debra >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------- >>> Debra Lacoste, Ph.D. >>> >>> | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca >>> >>> || >>> | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus >>> >>> || >>> | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor || >>> >>> | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca >>> >>> | >>> | debra.lacoste at gmail.com >>> >>> | >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) < >>> pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu >>> >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Hi Andrew, >>>> >>>> The element has been present since the earliest versions of >>>> MEI, although v. 2010-05 is when it got a camel-cased name. It can occur >>>> anywhere transcribed text is allowed. It's intended to be used to mark a >>>> stylistic term in para-text and metadata. is not a metadata >>>> "field" / container itself and therefore doesn't occur directly within the >>>> header, say in , because allowing it there would place it in >>>> competition with . >>>> >>>> However, 3.0.0 does provide a pair of new attributes on that >>>> can be used to describe the notation on each staff. The @notationtype may >>>> take the values "cmn", "mensural", "mensural.black", "mensural.white", >>>> "neume", and "tab", while @notationsubtype may take any textual value. If >>>> a 3-tiered classification is necessary for neume notation (like that >>>> provided for via the "mensural.black" and "mensural.white" values plus >>>> subtype) we can extend the value set for @notationtype. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> p. >>>> >>>> __________________________ >>>> Perry Roland >>>> Music Library >>>> University of Virginia >>>> P. O. Box 400175 >>>> Charlottesville, VA 22904 >>>> 434-982-2702 (w) >>>> pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: mei-neumes-ig [mei-neumes-ig-bounces+pdr4h= >>>> eservices.virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de >>>> ] >>>> on behalf of Andrew Hankinson [andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca >>>> >>>> ] >>>> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 1:31 PM >>>> To: mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >>>> >>>> Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name >>>> >>>> Hi all (but esp. Perry): >>>> >>>> I was just perusing the new 3.0.0 guidelines, and noticed a new >>>> element: "". >>>> >>>> The documentation for it says "A label for a characteristic style of >>>> writing or performance, such as 'bebop' or 'rock-n-roll'." Is one possible >>>> use of this as an identifier of notation-specific writing styles like "st. >>>> gall" or "square neumes"? >>>> >>>> I just wanted to check because I seem to remember Perry and I having >>>> long arguments over how to best capture this, and am surprised to see it >>>> there now. :) >>>> >>>> -Andrew >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> mei-neumes-ig mailing list >>>> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >>>> >>>> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> mei-neumes-ig mailing list >>>> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >>>> >>>> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> mei-neumes-ig mailing list >>> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >>> >>> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mei-neumes-ig mailing list >> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >> >> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca Tue Jun 21 22:41:08 2016 From: dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca (Debra Lacoste) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 16:41:08 -0400 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name In-Reply-To: <20160621215915.Horde.rYvba6xIt2AuDg981f5G1aS@webmail.uni-tuebingen.de> References: <75224065-67E0-4F2E-A2FF-391F1883F2B8@mail.mcgill.ca> <5416_1466519640_57695057_5416_21_1_CAO3j9d91J-YDw=ENVkHyr0tJ_X0jUYRnVMvJ9i+j_MPP41PmCw@mail.gmail.com> <13DA19BB-388B-41FE-9DED-1870DCA9FC54@mail.mcgill.ca> <20160621215915.Horde.rYvba6xIt2AuDg981f5G1aS@webmail.uni-tuebingen.de> Message-ID: Excellent! I like this list. We can have numerous "classifications," which would hopefully suit all styles of research. If there isn't an ontology already on the web, we could make our own. (and then refer to it) ---------------------------------------------------- Debra Lacoste, Ph.D. | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca || | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus || | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor || | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca | | debra.lacoste at gmail.com | On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Inga Behrendt < inga.behrendt at uni-tuebingen.de> wrote: > Hello! > > There are lots of categories for neume families (of course everybody > knows). I just bring it back to mind: > a staffless or on staffs / adiastematic or diastematic > b and the notation on lines can be devided into nail notation or square > notation and others > c families sorted by location (Beneventan notation, neumes from St. > Gall...) > d families sorted by systematic - Punktnotation (like e. g. Aquitanian > notation) and Akzentnotation (German neume notation, e. g. St. Gall > notation in neumes), both can be diastematic/on lines or > adiastematic/without lines > e handwritten (Flexibel in the vertical/horizontal ductus) or printed > (steretyped) > f more round, more angled > g sorted in chronological order > > I use most of the time c, d and g. :) > > Does that help in the diskussion? > > Herzlich! :) > Inga > > > > > Zitat von "Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h)" : > > The elements exists to avoid integrating thesauri / >> ontologies into MEI. With this approach, there can be any number of >> external classification schemes. MEI only needs to provide a mechanism by >> which elements of the markup, like can be associated with a term. >> >> -- >> p. >> >> __________________________ >> Perry Roland >> Music Library >> University of Virginia >> P. O. Box 400175 >> Charlottesville, VA 22904 >> 434-982-2702 (w) >> pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu >> ________________________________ >> From: mei-neumes-ig [mei-neumes-ig-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] on >> behalf of Kate Helsen [katehelsen at gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 12:43 PM >> To: Debra Lacoste; Neumes Interest Group of the Music Encoding Initiative >> Subject: Re: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name >> >> Would this help? >> http://individual.utoronto.ca/notaquadrata/lexicon.html >> >> >> I can get in touch with John Haines about copyright of this, and perhaps >> he'd be happy to see it integrated into MEI terminology. (This was part of >> my post-doc life in Toronto, five years ago.) >> >> Cheers, >> Kate >> >> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Debra Lacoste > >> wrote: >> Thanks for your message, Andrew. >> I was thinking more along the lines of the broad families, actually. >> >> It's the names that are problematic in my opinion, so I was thinking that >> instead of using solely the established names (i.e. "French", "St. Gall", >> "Messine", etc.), we could ALSO have a name that describes the look of the >> neumes. (My use of "scribal" wasn't intended to point to small and/or >> unique characteristics of a particular hand or style. Instead, I was >> leaning towards a new way to name notational styles that is based on "look" >> instead of location.) >> >> I have attached some examples of notations from all over Europe. They >> could be described in these ways: "slanted ductus, narrow nib" (or "slanted >> narrow"), "vertical ductus, narrow nib," "small square," etc. (we would >> have to make up the names). >> I see similarities in the first 4 examples, especially as compared to the >> other 3. Yet, they are all named in the literature as distinct notational >> styles. >> >> I was thinking that since we are still in the early stages here, we could >> have a place-holder for a different way to name the notational styles. It >> may or may not be adopted by researchers, but I think it *could* simplify >> the discussion surrounding neumes and possibly reduce the number of >> different types that are currently being distinguished. >> >> Just a thought! >> Debra >> >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------- >> Debra Lacoste, Ph.D. >> >> | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca >> || >> | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus >> || >> | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor || >> >> | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca >> | >> | debra.lacoste at gmail.com >> | >> >> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Hankinson < >> andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca> >> wrote: >> >> These are separate issues, I think. What Perry said in his previous >> e-mail is that, if we can come up with a list of style identifiers for >> neumes that we can categorize them into broad families. This is to help >> with, for example, a potential renderer, so that we can display neumes in >> st. gallen style, or in square style. >> >> Scribal features are best kept to a different set of tags in MEI -- the >> 'hand' element: >> >> http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/hand/ >> >> >> Capturing particular graphical features ("this scribe always puts a >> little jiggly thing at the end of their virga") would be much harder to >> describe systematically (that is, in an XML encoding hierarchy), and would >> arguably be better left to a graphical display standard, like SVG. >> >> But it depends on why you want to encode these things. Do you want to >> display the rendering exactly like the original page image? If so, why not >> just show the original image? Do you want to find the place where a >> particular scribe appears? Use the hand/handShift/handList elements. >> >> If you want to find a particular graphical correspondence between >> different MSS images, the notation encoding process is probably not the >> right place for this. That would probably be better left to a (theoretical) >> image comparison system directly, since it will be much more precise >> without also needing the work of somehow systematically capturing all the >> nuances of a particular scribe. >> >> On Jun 21, 2016, at 10:33 AM, Debra Lacoste > >> wrote: >> >> Hello everyone, >> It's been interesting to follow these discussions. >> I don't want to muddy the waters here, but I wonder if we can assign two >> elements? (if this element is the one that will describe the >> neumes at the level of the notational type, like "St Gall" or "French") >> >> We might want to (at some point) identify notational forms according to >> their graphical/scribal features (instead of or in addition to the more >> traditional geographical distinctions), or perhaps you're already planning >> this and I just haven't kept up. (If so, my apologies!) >> >> For example, "St Gall" neumes in the early books look a lot like >> "Messine" or "Laon" neumes (the latter lack the significative letters, but >> the ductus, size of the pen-nib, "swirliness" and other features are quite >> similar). Those same neumes show up in so-called "Klosterneuburg" notation >> in the 12th century, but by the 14th century the "Klosterneuburg" neumes >> are more "Gothic" in style, related perhaps to other "German" neumes. >> >> In my experience, palaeographic research in the 20th century generally >> separated neume styles according to their geographic origin (accompanied by >> geographic names, like "French", "Klosterneuburg", "Laon," etc.), but the >> computer will be able to spot identical shapes in books from a wide range >> of places in Europe. It could be that there is sometimes more of a >> connection between scribal styles of a particular *time* than of particular >> places. There is no doubt that some notations are specific to a particular >> place (Benevento, for example), but the notational style could still be >> assigned to a category of what the neumes look like (which would >> revolutionize the nomenclature of palaeography! ... No, I'm not sure I want >> to tackle that, but when all the individual neume-shapes are itemized and >> classified, I'm sure there will be duplicates in other notations and >> someone will take it on one day). >> >> If the element isn't the right place for a new name to denote >> a category of shapes that look similar, is there another tag where this >> could be entered? >> >> To be clear, this "scribal" identification I am suggesting is at the >> level of the notational style overall ... comparable to how we say "square >> neumes," "Gothic neumes", "German neumes", "Italian neumes", etc. but not >> tied to a geographical location. (For instance, "square neumes" is already >> perfect! It describes what it looks like, and the Franciscan mss from >> Italy show the same types of neumes and graphical features as mss from >> France with that notational style.) I can see such a description being >> applied at the level of the individual neume within any set of neumes from >> any place, and then connections across previously distinct notational >> styles will become more obvious. >> >> (and with enough samples the computer could determine whether or not the >> shape is similar enough and IT can uncover the connections between >> "Messine", "Klosterneuburg, "south-German" and "St Gall" neumes!) >> >> Sorry to be so long in describing this. It seems like the right time to >> consider the larger question of notational styles and how we perceive them, >> esp. since we are looking forward to branching out and working with >> manuscripts from France (Paris lat 12044 and 15181 -- with very different >> notations!) and perhaps some from Austria. >> >> Debra >> >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------- >> Debra Lacoste, Ph.D. >> >> | Cantus Database | http://cantus.uwaterloo.ca >> || >> | also https://uwaterloo.ca/margot/margot-projects/cantus >> || >> | University of Waterloo, Sessional Instructor || >> >> | dlacoste at uwaterloo.ca >> | >> | debra.lacoste at gmail.com >> | >> >> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) < >> pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu> >> wrote: >> >> Hi Andrew, >> >> The element has been present since the earliest versions of >> MEI, although v. 2010-05 is when it got a camel-cased name. It can occur >> anywhere transcribed text is allowed. It's intended to be used to mark a >> stylistic term in para-text and metadata. is not a metadata >> "field" / container itself and therefore doesn't occur directly within the >> header, say in , because allowing it there would place it in >> competition with . >> >> However, 3.0.0 does provide a pair of new attributes on that >> can be used to describe the notation on each staff. The @notationtype may >> take the values "cmn", "mensural", "mensural.black", "mensural.white", >> "neume", and "tab", while @notationsubtype may take any textual value. If >> a 3-tiered classification is necessary for neume notation (like that >> provided for via the "mensural.black" and "mensural.white" values plus >> subtype) we can extend the value set for @notationtype. >> >> -- >> p. >> >> __________________________ >> Perry Roland >> Music Library >> University of Virginia >> P. O. Box 400175 >> Charlottesville, VA 22904 >> 434-982-2702 (w) >> pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu >> ________________________________________ >> From: mei-neumes-ig [mei-neumes-ig-bounces+pdr4h= >> eservices.virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de] >> on behalf of Andrew Hankinson [andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca >> ] >> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 1:31 PM >> To: mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >> >> Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] Style name >> >> Hi all (but esp. Perry): >> >> I was just perusing the new 3.0.0 guidelines, and noticed a new element: >> "". >> >> The documentation for it says "A label for a characteristic style of >> writing or performance, such as 'bebop' or 'rock-n-roll'." Is one possible >> use of this as an identifier of notation-specific writing styles like "st. >> gall" or "square neumes"? >> >> I just wanted to check because I seem to remember Perry and I having long >> arguments over how to best capture this, and am surprised to see it there >> now. :) >> >> -Andrew >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mei-neumes-ig mailing list >> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >> >> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mei-neumes-ig mailing list >> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >> >> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mei-neumes-ig mailing list >> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >> >> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mei-neumes-ig mailing list >> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >> >> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elsa at campus.ul.pt Thu Jun 30 16:39:24 2016 From: elsa at campus.ul.pt (Elsa De Luca) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 14:39:24 +0000 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] table & comments Message-ID: Dear Everyone, Apologies for the long silence, I was away for a conference in Jerusalem and I didn't manage to take part in the discussion earlier. I have just finished to read all the emails you exchanges and *before* I add any comment I'd like to know if Kate and Inga have already cleared the table of neumes. if so, I'd be very happy to have a look at it and then send you my paleographical ruminations... Best wishes and many thanks, Elsa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From katehelsen at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 19:43:51 2016 From: katehelsen at gmail.com (Kate Helsen) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 13:43:51 -0400 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] table & comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just sent Inga a new version of the table, after she sent me some comments, yesterday. We should have it in a state of clarity very shortly. Cheers, K On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 10:39 AM, Elsa De Luca wrote: > Dear Everyone, > > Apologies for the long silence, I was away for a conference in Jerusalem > and I didn't manage to take part in the discussion earlier. I have just > finished to read all the emails you exchanges and *before* I add any > comment I'd like to know if Kate and Inga have already cleared the table of > neumes. if so, I'd be very happy to have a look at it and then send you my > paleographical ruminations... > > Best wishes and many thanks, > > Elsa > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elsa at campus.ul.pt Thu Jun 30 19:44:51 2016 From: elsa at campus.ul.pt (Elsa De Luca) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 17:44:51 +0000 Subject: [mei-neumes-ig] table & comments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: thank you, Kate! Looking forward to it, Elsa 2016-06-30 17:43 GMT+00:00 Kate Helsen : > I just sent Inga a new version of the table, after she sent me some > comments, yesterday. We should have it in a state of clarity very shortly. > Cheers, > K > > On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 10:39 AM, Elsa De Luca wrote: > >> Dear Everyone, >> >> Apologies for the long silence, I was away for a conference in Jerusalem >> and I didn't manage to take part in the discussion earlier. I have just >> finished to read all the emails you exchanges and *before* I add any >> comment I'd like to know if Kate and Inga have already cleared the table of >> neumes. if so, I'd be very happy to have a look at it and then send you my >> paleographical ruminations... >> >> Best wishes and many thanks, >> >> Elsa >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mei-neumes-ig mailing list >> mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de >> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > mei-neumes-ig mailing list > mei-neumes-ig at lists.uni-paderborn.de > https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-neumes-ig > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: