[MEI-L] How to distinguish different instruments in the <staffDef> and <staffGrp> elements
Laurent Pugin
lxpugin at gmail.com
Tue May 26 10:48:24 CEST 2015
Hi Andrew and Hans,
This makes sense to me. I guess you would also need to have @instr in
<layerDef> when there is more than one instrument represented in one staff,
wouldn't you?
Laurent
On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 12:56 AM, Andrew Hankinson <
andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca> wrote:
> I think I know what you're trying to do: You're trying to ensure that a
> part that gets extracted to the right amount of staves, correct? That,
> given an ensemble work that features a piano, your software does not try to
> extract two different parts for the right and left hands of the piano.
> Correct?
>
> I believe what you are looking for is in the <instrumentation>,
> <ensemble>, <instrVoice> and <instrVoiceGrp> cluster of tags. <instrVoice>
> contains @count which indicates the number of performers.
>
> http://www.music-encoding.org/documentation/guidelines2013/instrVoice
>
> Looking this over I might suggest to move @instr out of the MIDI module
> and specify that it should point to an <instrVoice> element, and perhaps do
> the same and have @instrGrp / <instrGrp> pairs as well. That way you could
> do:
>
> <instrumentation>
> <instrVoiceGrp n="1">
> <instrVoice n="1" code="sa">Violin I</instrVoice>
> <instrVoice n="2" code="sa">Violin II</instrVoice>
> <instrVoice n="3" code="sb">Viola</instrVoice>
> <instrVoice n="4" code="sc">Violoncello</instrVoice>
> </instrGrp>
> <instrVoice n="6" code="pf" count="1">Piano</instrVoice>
> </instrumentation>
>
> And then:
>
> <staffGrp instrGrp="1"> ... </staffGrp>
> <staffGrp instr="6">
> <staffDef> ...treble staff... </staffDef>
> <staffDef> ...bass staff... </staffDef>
> </staffGrp>
>
> The other possibility to move instrGrp/instrDef out of the MIDI module and
> have them replace instrVoiceGrp/instrVoice.
>
> Anyone else out there have any ideas?
>
> -Andrew
>
> On May 22, 2015, at 8:01 AM, Hans Vereyken <hans at neoscores.com> wrote:
>
> I think this problem can be tackled with an @players. @players can be an
> attribute of staffGrp and means that the content is played by x
> player(s)/instrument(s). It defaults to the amount of staves in the group.
> The @players can also be an attribute of staffDef and means that the staff
> is performed by x player(s)/instrument(s). It defaults to 1;
> @players is required if it's isn't default.
>
> Would this be possible?
>
> Hans Vereyken
> *Developer*
>
> M hans at neoscores.com
> T +32 472 52 75 59
>
> neoScores BVBA <http://www.neoscores.com/> // Pluyseghemstraat 19,
> BE-2550 Kontich // Twitter: @neoscores
>
> /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
>
> Follow us on: Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/neoscores> // Twitter
> <http://twitter.com/neoscores>
>
> On 22 May 2015 at 13:34, Andrew Hankinson <andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> Notating multiple parts on one staff can be done with the layerDef, looks
>> good, thanks.
>>
>> one part on multiple staves is a bit trickier, but can still be done. You
>> can use the @staff and @layer attributes on events (chords, notes, rests)
>> to "assign" that event to a particular staff and/or layer.
>>
>> One part on multiple staves is a very common thing (I'm a professional
>> pianist) and shouldn't be 'a bit trickier'. Besides I'm working on reading
>> files, not creating them. I didn't look through all the MEI examples but
>> this far I didn't found a single example demonstrating this technique.
>> Ruling out all files who don't follow this technique would be a massive
>> mistake.
>>
>>
>> I didn't mean to suggest that it's uncommon; I just meant that within the
>> confines of XML, dealing with overlapping or crossing hierarchies requires
>> a bit of extra semantics. The link I sent you to the cross-staff example
>> should be able to give you a start on dealing with cross-staff notation.
>>
>>
>>
>> Follow us on: Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/neoscores> // Twitter
>> <http://twitter.com/neoscores>
>>
>> On 22 May 2015 at 09:54, Andrew Hankinson <
>> andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On May 22, 2015, at 9:16 AM, Hans Vereyken <hans at neoscores.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Andrew,
>>>
>>> I see, my subject title is a bit confusing, better would be: How to
>>> distinguish different players in the <staffDef> and <staffGrp> elements.
>>>
>>> "If you have two different staves, these are two different players,
>>> regardless of the label (a left and a right hand on a piano could be
>>> thought of as two different "players" since they're playing two separate
>>> parts)."
>>> I strongly disagree on that, it is played by a single player and it is a
>>> single part. This is even more clear if you think about harp parts,
>>> (very often) one 'voice' (strangely called 'layers' in MEI) traveling
>>> across 2 staves.
>>>
>>>
>>> But they are independent lines. In theory, you could have two one-handed
>>> people playing a piano and it would make no practical difference. :) The
>>> voice/layer nomenclature in MEI comes from a desire to separate a melodic
>>> line from any idea of "voice leading." (i.e., not wanting to confuse the
>>> practical separation of independent instrument lines from the
>>> music-theoretical notions of harmonic and melodic progression).
>>>
>>> Another problem is cross staff notes, in your opinion these are the same
>>> as something that would be called 'cross part notes' (since each staff is a
>>> part). Think about it, 'cross part notes'... I don't even know any
>>> contemporary composer who did this.
>>> I think this information should be added to the MEI format, and I think
>>> it can be done with an attribute in the staffGrp element indicating that
>>> all staves in that group are performed by one player/instrument (or group
>>> of players, eg, 1st Violin).
>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry, I'm still not clear on what you are asking. Have you looked at
>>> the @instr attribute on staffGrp? Is this what you are looking for? Or is
>>> it something else?
>>>
>>> This way you can keep numbering the staves top to bottom for the whole
>>> score, but it's clear which staves are played by the same player/instrument
>>> and should be grouped together when playing around with parts.
>>> I agree that it needs to be possible to hide a single staff in a part
>>> with multiple staves, but semantically spoken it's a big difference with
>>> hiding a part.
>>>
>>>
>>> Would the `layerDef` mechanism help clear this up? You can define a
>>> specific layer to correspond to a specific voice, in the same way you can
>>> define a specific staffDef to define a specific staff. Then you can trace a
>>> specific layer ("voice") throughout the work, having pre-defined it in your
>>> scoreDef/staffDef block.
>>>
>>> For an example, see the Ponchielli_LarrivoDelRe.mei file, where you have
>>> the percussion instruments on a single staff:
>>>
>>> <staffDef n="18" xml:id="P18" label="Batteria" label.abbr="Batt."
>>> lines="1" clef.shape="perc" key.sig="4f" key.mode="major" spacing="117">
>>> <layerDef n="1">
>>> <instrDef n="Snare_Drum" xml:id="P18-X2"/>
>>> </layerDef>
>>> <layerDef n="2">
>>> <instrDef n="Bass_Drum" xml:id="P18-X1"/>
>>> </layerDef>
>>> </staffDef>
>>>
>>> and then in the body (for example):
>>>
>>> <staff n="18">
>>> <layer n="1">
>>> <beam>
>>> <note xml:id="d1e1818" pname="f" oct="4" dur="16" stem.dir="up"
>>> instr="#P18-X2" pnum="61"/>
>>> <note xml:id="d1e1837" pname="f" oct="4" dur="16" stem.dir="up"
>>> instr="#P18-X2" pnum="61"/>
>>> </beam>
>>> </layer>
>>> <layer n="2">
>>> <rest xml:id="d1e1859" dur="8"/>
>>> </layer>
>>> </staff>
>>>
>>>
>>> At the same time it would be great to have another attribute in the
>>> staffDef element indicating that this staff is performed by multiple
>>> players, for instance 1st and 2nd Violins are notated as 1st and 2nd voice
>>> (again, called layers in MEI). This would be very helpfull in reading some
>>> chorus score's to (in the MEI examples this would clear up different parts
>>> in Altenburg_Macht_auf_die_Tor).
>>>
>>>
>>> I think the layerDef mechanism will help here too.
>>>
>>>
>>> To be sure we are talking about the same:
>>> - staff: needed to notate music
>>> - part: music performed by a single player/instrument
>>>
>>> One part can be notated on multiple staves, multiple parts can be
>>> notated on a single staff. For me part is definitely not the same as staff.
>>>
>>>
>>> Multiple parts on a single staff is pretty easy; one part on multiple
>>> staves is a bit trickier, but can still be done. You can use the @staff and
>>> @layer attributes on events (chords, notes, rests) to "assign" that event
>>> to a particular staff and/or layer.
>>>
>>> See: http://www.verovio.org/examples/features/cross-staff.mei for an
>>> example of how this might work (and
>>> http://www.verovio.org/features.xhtml?id=cross-staff for a sample
>>> rendering).
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Hans
>>>
>>> Hans Vereyken
>>> *Developer*
>>>
>>> M hans at neoscores.com
>>> T +32 472 52 75 59
>>>
>>> neoScores BVBA <http://www.neoscores.com/> // Pluyseghemstraat 19,
>>> BE-2550 Kontich // Twitter: @neoscores
>>>
>>> /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
>>>
>>> Follow us on: Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/neoscores> // Twitter
>>> <http://twitter.com/neoscores>
>>>
>>> On 22 May 2015 at 00:58, Andrew Hankinson <
>>> andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>
>>>> Welcome to MEI!
>>>>
>>>> Are you looking for the equivalent of the MIDI instrument that would
>>>> perform these parts? Or something else?
>>>>
>>>> If you have two different staves, these are two different players,
>>>> regardless of the label (a left and a right hand on a piano could be
>>>> thought of as two different "players" since they're playing two separate
>>>> parts). If you have a staff that is "hidden" (for example, if you have an
>>>> instrument that does not play on certain pages) you still need to define
>>>> the staff and give it a number. This number should be constant throughout
>>>> the score. If it does not play in a specific place, it will simply not
>>>> appear in the measure (as far as I understand it).
>>>>
>>>> If you're in a renderer and you want to switch all the "n=2" parts off,
>>>> then, you would simply hide it whenever you have <staff n="2" ...>. The "2"
>>>> does not refer to the second staff on any given page; rather, it refers to
>>>> the second staff defined in a score, regardless of whether it appears or
>>>> not.
>>>>
>>>> -Andrew
>>>>
>>>> > On May 21, 2015, at 4:26 PM, Hans Vereyken <hans at neoscores.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Hi,
>>>> >
>>>> > This is my first post to the MEI mailing list.
>>>> > I'm implementing MEI into our music renderer and am having trouble
>>>> getting all the info I need about staves.
>>>> >
>>>> > I searches the documentation and mail archives for answers but wasn't
>>>> able to find what I'm looking for.
>>>> >
>>>> > So each staff is declared seperatly, with the <staffGrp> certain
>>>> groups and there symbols are declared. Although a brace usually means that
>>>> the staves within are the same player (e.g. piano brace), it is not enough
>>>> to be sure of it.
>>>> >
>>>> > In the example files I looked at 'Altenburg_Ein_feste_Burg', the
>>>> relevant xml:
>>>> >
>>>> > <scoreDef meter.count="4" meter.unit="4"
>>>> meter.sym="common" key.sig="0" key.mode="major">
>>>> > <staffGrp>
>>>> > <staffGrp symbol="brace"
>>>> barthru="true">
>>>> > <staffDef n="1" clef.line="2"
>>>> clef.shape="G" key.sig="0" lines="5" label="Trompete 1" label.abbr="Tr 1"/>
>>>> > <staffDef n="2" clef.line="2"
>>>> clef.shape="G" key.sig="0" lines="5" label="Trompete 2" label.abbr="Tr 2"/>
>>>> > <staffDef n="3" clef.line="2"
>>>> clef.shape="G" key.sig="0" lines="5" label="Trompete 3" label.abbr="Tr 3"/>
>>>> > </staffGrp>
>>>> > <staffGrp symbol="bracket"
>>>> barthru="true">
>>>> > <staffDef n="4" clef.shape="G"
>>>> clef.dis="8" clef.dis.place="below" clef.line="2" label="Pos1 Tro 4"
>>>> key.sig="0" label.abbr="P 1 Tr 4" lines="5"/>
>>>> > <staffDef n="5" clef.line="4"
>>>> clef.shape="F" lines="5" key.sig="0" label="Posaune 2" label.abbr="Pos 2"/>
>>>> > <staffDef n="6" label="Posaune 3"
>>>> label.abbr="Pos 3" clef.line="4" clef.shape="F" key.sig="0" lines="5"/>
>>>> > </staffGrp>
>>>> > </staffGrp>
>>>> > </scoreDef>
>>>> >
>>>> > and: Chopin_Etude_op.10_no.9:
>>>> >
>>>> > <scoreDef meter.count="6" meter.unit="8"
>>>> key.sig="4f" key.mode="minor">
>>>> > <staffGrp symbol="brace" barthru="true">
>>>> > <staffDef n="1" clef.shape="G"
>>>> lines="5" clef.line="2"/>
>>>> > <staffDef n="2" clef.line="4"
>>>> clef.shape="F" lines="5"/>
>>>> > </staffGrp>
>>>> > </scoreDef>
>>>> >
>>>> > So in both cases I have a group of staves with a brace symbol, how
>>>> should I know which staves are played by which player.
>>>> > I can try to sniff the labels and by guessing the semantic meaning of
>>>> 'Trompete 1,2,3' and conclude these has to be 3 different parts. In the
>>>> second example this isn't possible, so this won't work (no surprise).
>>>> > In a dynamic music renderer, where you can switch parts on/off this
>>>> is key information.
>>>> >
>>>> > How should it be done? Am I missing something?
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanks in advance!
>>>> > Hans Vereyken
>>>> > _______________________________________________
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