[MEI-L] [Extreme] non-standard key sigs

[Byrd, Donald A.]

On Mon, 8 Sep 2014 14:43:30 +0000, "Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h)" 
<pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu> wrote:

> Don,
>
> My apologies.  I misread section the section labeled "Extreme
> accidentals and key signature".  In my haste to locate any examples,
> I understood section 3a. to apply to key signatures.  So, as I was
> saying ... :-)
>
> Key signatures containing double flats and sharps appear to be "as
> rare as hen's teeth", as my grandma used to say.  So, MEI need not
> take them into consideration -- as "logical" key signatures.  What I
> mean is that once you've gone around the circle of fifths past 7
> flats or sharps, it becomes easier to represent the key / tonal
> center enharmonically.  Of course, Ted is right -- the "circle" of
> fifths is really a spiral, but thinking of it as a circle is an
> assumption that simplifies a great many things.  I guess one can
> write enough double or triple flats, for example, to get to the key
> of G major, but it's easier/better for both the composer and the
> performer to switch to 1 sharp in order to capture tonality.

I agree completely.

--DAB


> Even so,  one can encode these key signatures *visually* using
> <keySig>.  Perhaps this is a better example the one I gave before
> illustrating key and key signature
> "confusion/ambiguity/contradiction" -- <keySig> says one thing while
> @key.sig (@key.fifths if the name gets changed) says another.
>
> Yes, Ted was in attendance at Dagstuhl.
>
> --
> p.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Byrd, Donald A. [mailto:donbyrd at indiana.edu]
>> Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2014 2:39 PM
>> To: Music Encoding Initiative; Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h)
>> Subject: Re: [MEI-L] [Extreme] non-standard key sigs
>>
>> Perry, you say, w/r/t double flats or sharps in key signatures, "The
>> examples provided by Don
>> (http://www.informatics.indiana.edu/donbyrd/CMNExtremesBody.htm#pitc
>> h)
>> may be the only ones, I don't know." Actually, I don't give any
>> examples _in key signatures_ there. But reading it a rang a bell, and I
>> discovered this in a 2009 file of material for my Extremes list:
>>
>> ---- BEGIN ----
>> Key signatures of up to one triple-flat + six double-flats = 15 normal
>> flats (!) appear in Dumitrescu (2007), pp. 141-170. However, it's not
>> clear this qualifies as CMN. (contributed by Hook, who comments: "This
>> is a modern realization of a 16th-century motet. The original
>> manuscript was written in a circle. The author doing the reconstruction
>> argues that the proper way to perform it requires adding flats at each
>> repetition, and this is where that brings us by the third page.")
>>
>> Dumitrescu, Theodor (2007). Constructing a Canonic Pitch Spiral: The
>> Case of  _Salve Radix_. In _Canons and Canonic Techniques, 14th-16th
>> Centuries_, ed. Kateligne Schiltz and Bonnie J. Blackburn (Leuven:
>> Peeters), pp. 141-170.
>> ---- END ----
>>
>> I'll add it to the Extremes webpage. But I'm not sure how seriously MEI
>> should take it! ...Say, don't we know Ted Dumitrescu from Dagstuhl??
>>
>> --DAB
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 5 Sep 2014 21:55:59 +0000, "Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h)"
>> <pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu> wrote:
>> >> [---- SNIP ----]
>> >> Since <keyAccid> allows encoding any of the accidentals in
>> >> data.ACCIDENTALS.EXPLICIT, it seems we can already strike a nice balance
>> >> between ease and properness by understanding <keySig> as an
>> indication
>> >> of visual appearance. In this situation, @key.sig and @key.sig.mixed
>> >> would help determine the pitch class of following notes, and <keySig>
>> >> would determine the written appearance of the key signature.
>> >>
>> >> Notably, this solution doesn't account for logical key signatures with
>> >> double accidentals.
>> >
>> > Neither Read nor Gould explicitly address the possibility of key
>> > signatures requiring double flats or sharps.  Gould (p. 94) writes,
>> > "[a]ny *sharp or flat* may be selected as a key signature to alter
>> > all octaves of the selected pitches".  Her list doesn't include
>> > double flats or sharps. Read (p. 140) says double flats and sharps
>> > must be written wherever they're needed, implying that they are not
>> > to be included in the key signature.  Likewise, Stone's Music
>> > Notation in the Twentieth Century doesn't include any examples of
>> > double flats or sharps in key signatures.  The examples provide by
>> > Don
>> >
>> (http://www.informatics.indiana.edu/donbyrd/CMNExtremesBody.htm#pitc
>> h) may
>> > be the only ones, I don't know.  In any case, as evidenced by Gould
>> > and Read's statements, such key signatures stretch the limits of what
>> > a "logical" key signature is to the breaking point.  Currently, they
>> > can be encoded using keySig/keyAccid, but not @key.sig -- we may just
>> > have to live with this limitation for a!
>> >  while.
>> >
>> >> I'm sure there's something else I'm missing too!
>> >
>> > We must be missing the same thing.  :-)
>> >
>> > --
>> > p.
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Christopher
>> >>
>> >> On 09/05/2014 02:49 PM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Comments below--
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > p.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
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>> >
>>
>>
>
>


--
Donald Byrd
Woodrow Wilson Indiana Teaching Fellow
Adjunct Associate Professor of Informatics
Visiting Scientist, Research Technologies
Indiana University Bloomington