[MEI-L] Thin brackets in orchestral scores

Thu Dec 12 22:19:47 CET 2013

Hi Raffaele,

I agree we should keep the list of options as short as possible, and I
don't think there is any intention here to extend it widely. The line
between what has a different function and what it "just" representation in
music notation is always difficulty to draw ;-) I am not sure there is a
deep functional difference between brace and bracket, but I might be wrong.

Laurent

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 9:21 PM, Roland, Perry (pdr4h) <
pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu> wrote:

>  Hi Raffaele,
>
>
> > Example
> > MEI: these staves are grouped. This group has and id "grp1"
> > Other system: the class "stave brackets" has to be rendered according to
> this routine. Apply
> > it to MEI element #grp1. Also, #grp1 is a special case, so tweak this
> parameter a bit.
> > I feel strongly that MEI ought to be fully agnostic of the "other
> system" in the example.
>
> I agree with you.  In so far as it's practical, MEI should remain agnostic
> about many things.  However, as yet there is nothing like CSS for music
> notation, so we're left to deal with a wide range of so-called "other
> systems" for rendition.  I regard the attribute values we've been
> discussing as parameters to those other systems.  This is why I refer to
> them as "hints".
>
> I don't think, however, we can ignore those cases where the encoder has a
> very definite symbol in mind and wishes to provide an exemplar, e.g., in
> the case of so-called "non-standard" symbols.  We should also keep in mind
> the possibility of MEI functioning as an intermediate representation
> *between systems* at a level beyond "there's a bracket here, draw one of
> your choosing". While, as Zoltan said, MEI != SVG, I believe there are
> cases where the possibility of passing a precise rendition to a down-stream
> application would be very useful.  The combination of @altsym and
> <symbolDef> provides for these cases.
>
> Since it aims to standardize the musical symbol repertoire, I believe a
> SMuFL codepoint could be appropriate content of <symbolDef>, similar to the
> way Unicode codepoints can be referenced by TEI <char> elements.  SVG,
> PostScript, or other graphic description languages could also be
> appropriate content.
>
> I don't characterize this as "degrading MEI to SVG" (one of my new
> favorite phrases), but rather as practical employment of existing
> standards.  I also don't think it diminishes MEI's level of/commitment
> to agnosticism.
>
> --
> p.
>
> __________________________
> Perry Roland
> Music Library
>  University of Virginia
> P. O. Box 400175
> Charlottesville, VA 22904
> 434-982-2702 (w)
> pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* mei-l [mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] on behalf of
> Raffaele Viglianti [raffaeleviglianti at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 12, 2013 2:22 PM
>
> *To:* Music Encoding Initiative
> *Subject:* Re: [MEI-L] Thin brackets in orchestral scores
>
>    On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Roland, Perry (pdr4h) <
> pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>> So, recording those details necessitates a <grpSym> child of <staffGrp>
>> with its own attributes.  Those attributes can then be used to describe the
>> symbol in greater detail or point to a precise rendition stored elsewhere.
>>
>
>  I would keep the options as limited as possible. Micah is right: we
> should introduce a new symbol only if it translates to a different
> function, otherwise MEI should not bother: we are not doing typesetting
> (even while we acknowledge it as a 4th, hovering, dimension).
>
>  Wouldn't it be best having other standards pointing at a semantic MEI
> elements to provide a rendition, rather than adding a pointing mechanisms
> from MEI?
>
>  Example
> MEI: these staves are grouped. This group has and id "grp1"
> Other system: the class "stave brackets" has to be rendered according to
> this routine. Apply it to MEI element #grp1. Also, #grp1 is a special case,
> so tweak this parameter a bit.
>
>  I feel strongly that MEI ought to be fully agnostic of the "other
> system" in the example.
>
>  Raf
>
>
>
>>
>> --
>> p.
>>
>> __________________________
>> Perry Roland
>> Music Library
>> University of Virginia
>> P. O. Box 400175
>> Charlottesville, VA 22904
>>  434-982-2702 (w)
>> pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu
>> ________________________________________
>>  From: mei-l [mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] on behalf of Byrd,
>>  Donald A. [donbyrd at indiana.edu]
>> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:21 PM
>> To: mei-l at lists.uni-paderborn.de
>>  Subject: Re: [MEI-L] Thin brackets in orchestral scores
>>
>> Leaving aside nesting and details like thinness, as far as I know, the
>> _only_ symbols ever used to connect staves or groups of staves in CWMN
>> are (1) curly braces, (2) square brackets, and (3) a thin line -- the
>> last being used only to connect all the staves of a system. If there
>> are others, I'd love to see an example.
>>
>> --Don
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 12:51:53 +0000, Andrew Hankinson
>> <andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Zoltan,
>> >
>> > There is no limit to the number of nested staff groups. However, if
>> > you have more than four nested staff groups, each with its own
>> > bracket style, your engraver should be fired! :)
>> >
>> > @symbol is simply meant to indicate that there is a ?generic?
>> > bracket, brace, or line present. This is to give a visual hint, but
>> > not a visual definition, to any software parsing the MEI file. Do you
>> > have any examples of connecting symbols that are not one of these?
>> > (Beyond those previously discussed by Laurent?)
>> >
>> > -Andrew
>> >
>> > On Dec 12, 2013, at 4:30 AM, K?míves Zoltán
>> > <zolaemil at gmail.com<mailto:zolaemil at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Perry,
>> >
>> > It makes sense to separately encode the visual characteristics in a
>> > child element, such as <grpSym>. Forgive me for my ignorance about
>> > the existence of this element!
>> >
>> > However, I contemplate the problem of having too few values for @symbol.
>> >
>> > Consider the following statement: "there are N different symbols used
>> > in the score that connect groups of staves". How would you encode the
>> > staff groups if N>=4?
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > Zoltan
>> >
>> >
>> > 2013/12/11 Roland, Perry (pdr4h)
>> > <pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu<mailto:pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu>>
>> >
>> > Hi Zoltan,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Some elements (but not <staffGrp>) already allow @altsym, which
>> > contains a pointer to a <symbolDef> element that, in turn, contains
>> > instructions on how to "draw" the symbol.  This area of the schema
>> > has not been exercised much and could therefore use a lot of work.
>> > However, I think <symbolDef> could be extended to contain SVG,
>> > PostScript, etc.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Turning to how this would work with <staffGrp>, the @altsym attribute
>> > doesn't actually belong on <staffGrp>.  It's the visual
>> > characteristics of <grpSym> we're trying to capture, not those of
>> > <staffGrp>.  I believe this is what Andrew's comment was intended to
>> > mean.  So, instead of <staffGrp>, <grpSym>, which can be a child of
>> > <staffGrp>, should bear @altsym, e.g.,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > <staffGrp xml:id="P2" label="Piano" barthru="true">
>> >
>> >  <grpSym symbol="brace" altsym="#myBrace"/>
>> >
>> >  <staffDef ...
>> >
>> > </staffGrp>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Although sometimes it can't be avoided, it's generally bad practice
>> > to use attributes to describe other attributes.  The usual way to
>> > handle this is to "promote" an attribute to element status and then
>> > give it its own attributes.  That's what <grpSym> is doing.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The <grpSym> element, however, still has the @symbol attribute with
>> > the same values as when it's used on <staffGrp>.  In effect,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > <staffGrp symbol="brace">
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > is short-hand for
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > <staffGrp><grpSym symbol="brace"/>.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > In other words, as in several places in MEI, it's possible to use
>> > attributes for less-detail-oriented encodings (for example, when you
>> > don't care what the brace looks like), but use elements when you do.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > p.
>> >
>> > __________________________
>> > Perry Roland
>> > Music Library
>> > University of Virginia
>> > P. O. Box 400175
>> > Charlottesville, VA 22904
>> > 434-982-2702<tel:434-982-2702> (w)
>> > pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: mei-l
>> > [mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:
>> mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de>] on behalf of Zoltán
>> > K?míves
>> > [zolaemil at gmail.com<mailto:zolaemil at gmail.com>]
>> > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 5:10 PM
>> >
>> > To: Music Encoding Initiative
>> > Subject: Re: [MEI-L] Thin brackets in orchestral scores
>> >
>> > Hi Andrew,
>> >
>> > The grouping of staves is captured by the staffGrp elements without
>> > specifying @symbol. @symbol captures additional information. I talk
>> > about this additional content.
>> >
>> > Zoltan
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: Andrew Hankinson<mailto:andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca>
>> > Sent: 2013.12.11. 20:45
>> > To: Music Encoding Initiative<mailto:mei-l at lists.uni-paderborn.de>
>> > Subject: Re: [MEI-L] Thin brackets in orchestral scores
>> >
>> > The intellectual content (?logical domain?) is the groups of staves,
>> > not the symbol.
>> >
>> > On Dec 11, 2013, at 2:06 PM, K?míves Zoltán
>> > <zolaemil at gmail.com<mailto:zolaemil at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > Would you mind to read my crazy thoughts about this issue? I'm just
>> > curious what you people think of my thinking.
>> >
>> > I think the "intellectual content" in this case isn't so much how the
>> > connecting symbols look, but the fact that the symbols are
>> > *different*.
>> >
>> > The current values of @symbol already bear some sort of graphical
>> > information, I think. The problem arose now, because it seems that
>> > the current set of values don't provide a *complete" classification
>> > (that is, in some cases there's no value which describes the symbol's
>> > graphical shape appropriately). But of course, it's impossible to
>> > provide a complete classification without degrading the markup to SVG.
>> >
>> > If we accept that the intellectual content is the *difference*
>> > between the connecting symbols, then the proper separation of the
>> > "intellectual content" from it's graphical representation would be to
>> > use a set of values something like this:
>> >
>> > "symbol1",
>> > "symbol2",
>> > "symbol3",
>> > etc.
>> >
>> > If one wanted to capture more info about their "look and feel", one
>> > could use some pointing mechanism to point to a different element
>> > that records the graphical info (possibly even pointing to an
>> > external SVG...)
>> >
>> > I know, it's a crazy abstraction. And it may be way too abstract
>> > compared to its practical use, and we could be better off adding a
>> > handful of carefully defined values.
>> >
>> > Zoltan
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 2013/12/11 Laurent Pugin
>> > <laurent at music.mcgill.ca<mailto:laurent at music.mcgill.ca>>
>> > It seems to me that adding "bracketsq" as a possible value would be
>> > an appropriate addition. I don't think this particular case should
>> > necessary open up a discussion on what is just typesetting or not.
>> >
>> > Laurent
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Roland, Perry (pdr4h)
>> > <pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu<mailto:pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu>>
>> > wrote:
>> > Yes, caution is advised.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > p.
>> >
>> >
>> > __________________________
>> > Perry Roland
>> > Music Library
>> > University of Virginia
>> > P. O. Box 400175
>> > Charlottesville, VA 22904
>> > 434-982-2702<tel:434-982-2702> (w)
>> > pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu
>> > ________________________________________
>> > From: mei-l
>> > [mei-l-bounces+pdr4h=virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:
>> virginia.edu at lists.uni-paderborn.de>] on behalf of Johannes
>> > Kepper
>> > [kepper at edirom.de<mailto:kepper at edirom.de>]
>> > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:02 AM
>> >
>> > To: Music Encoding Initiative
>> > Subject: Re: [MEI-L] Thin brackets in orchestral scores
>> >
>> > While there is certainly no harm in adding a well-defined set of
>> > additional attribute values, the risk I see is that the distinction
>> > between these values gets harder every time, eventually watering down
>> > their expressiveness in terms of interchange. I'm not saying we're
>> > reaching that point here, I'm just saying that we should be careful?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Am 11.12.2013 um 15:58 schrieb Roland, Perry (pdr4h)
>> > <pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu<mailto:pdr4h at eservices.virginia.edu>>:
>> >
>> >> The "land of music typesetting" is always nearby, not unlike a 4th
>> >> dimension hovering around us and within us.  :-)   Intellectual
>> >> content and presentation are always difficult to separate.  But try
>> >> we must.
>> >>
>> >> There are already issues in the tracker related to @symbol -- nos.
>> >> 180 & 182.
>> >>
>> >> From issue #180 -- "The top and bottom components of a bracket can
>> >> be rendered as curved (similar to Unicode #x1D115) or straight
>> >> (similar to Unicode #x0005B). The simplest method of dealing with
>> >> this distinction is to add "bracketsq" (bracket square) to the
>> >> values allowed by @symbol.  "bracket" will continue to be used for
>> >> the usual, curved musical bracket. The documentation should be
>> >> edited to make the distinction clear."
>> >>
>> >> I won't attempt to reproduce #182 here, but it covers the selection
>> >> of a value for @symbol that captures a line (often fairly wide) used
>> >> to group systems instead of a brace or bracket.  There's an image in
>> >> #182 that illustrates various grouping symbols.
>> >>
>> >> Neither the so-called square bracket nor the
>> >> wide-line-grouping-symbol can be encoded using @symbol="line" since
>> >> that value is already reserved for the line connecting the staves at
>> >> their left edge.  I'm partial to the value "rule", but I'm open to
>> >> suggestions.
>> >>
>> >> I see no harm in adding generic values like this to MEI because they
>> >> are what I like to call "rendering hints" for the intellectual
>> >> content -- in this case the staff group.  But obviously this
>> >> mechanism is not optimal for capturing all the visual details of the
>> >> symbol, such as line width, color, position, etc.  I am somewhat
>> >> trepidatious about going too far down that road, at the end of which
>> >> MEI becomes a re-definition of SVG.  :-)
>> >>
>> >> Yes, there are still things to add to MEI.  And, yes, this is an
>> >> opportunity to do so.  Now, if there were only more hours in the day
>> >> ...
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> p.
>> >>
>> >> __________________________
>> >> Perry Roland
>> >> Music Library
>> >> University of Virginia
>> >> P. O. Box 400175
>> >> Charlottesville, VA 22904
>> >> 434-982-2702<tel:434-982-2702> (w)
>> >> pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu
>> >> ________________________________________
>> >> From: mei-l
>> >> [mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:
>> mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de>] on behalf of Johannes
>> >> Kepper
>> >> [kepper at edirom.de<mailto:kepper at edirom.de>]
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 8:47 AM
>> >> To: Music Encoding Initiative
>> >> Subject: Re: [MEI-L] Thin brackets in orchestral scores
>> >>
>> >> The reason why I feel slightly uneasy with this all is that it seems
>> >> that we seem to enter the land of a music typesetting program here.
>> >> In my ignorance about such details, I would probably encode that as
>> >> a line, and ignore the fact that it is connected on both ends. In
>> >> manuscripts, there would probably be no difference between this and
>> >> either brackets or lines. But maybe you're right, and we should
>> >> include the additional value. @Perry, do I remember correctly that
>> >> you spotted some values in MusicXML not currently supported by MEI
>> >> anyway? Is this an opportunity to revise them?
>> >>
>> >> jo
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Am 11.12.2013 um 14:39 schrieb Laurent Pugin
>> >> <laurent at music.mcgill.ca<mailto:laurent at music.mcgill.ca>>:
>> >>
>> >>> You are right, I think it is missing.
>> >>>
>> >>> There are actually a few of them in the examples, at least there is
>> >>> this one (however with no representation in the encoding)
>> >>>
>> http://www.music-encoding.org/sampleCollection/encodings/Berlioz_Symphony_op25.pdf
>> >>>
>> >>> Laurent
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 1:21 PM, TW
>> >>> <zupftom at googlemail.com<mailto:zupftom at googlemail.com>> wrote:
>> >>> Laurent's post made me wonder whether we might be missing an
>> >>> additional value for staffGrp/@symbol for the thin bracket that is
>> >>> used for sub-groups in orchestral scores[1].  Looking at some PDFs in
>> >>> the sample collection I didn't see anything like that (I didn't look
>> >>> through all of them).
>> >>>
>> >>> Thomas
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> [1] see e.g. http://notengrafik.com/pdf/examples/Tchaikovsky.pdf
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> mei-l mailing list
>> >>> mei-l at lists.uni-paderborn.de<mailto:mei-l at lists.uni-paderborn.de>
>> >>> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
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>> >>> https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l
>> >>
>> >> Dr. Johannes Kepper
>> >> BMBF-Projekt "Freischütz Digital"
>> >>
>> >> Musikwiss. Seminar Detmold / Paderborn
>> >> Gartenstraße 20
>> >> 32756 Detmold
>> >>
>> >> Tel. +49 5231 975669<tel:%2B49%205231%20975669>
>> >> Mail: kepper at edirom.de<mailto:kepper at edirom.de>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> mei-l mailing list
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Donald Byrd
>> Woodrow Wilson Indiana Teaching Fellow
>> Adjunct Associate Professor of Informatics
>> Visiting Scientist, Research Technologies
>> Indiana University Bloomington
>>
>>
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