No subject

RNG and XSD schemas simultaneously. Is that correct?

If you would like a hand, I can help to set up the SVN repository to ensure=
 that the experimental and release pieces are kept separate.

Cheers,
-Andrew


On 2010-06-17, at 2:53 PM, Roland, Perry (pdr4h) wrote:

> Andrew's suggestion sounds reasonable to me.  It's good to have an empiri=
cal basis for the task force (I have the phrases "committee" and "sub-commi=
ttee" and, worst of all, the "sub-committee on committees") to base its rec=
ommendations on.
>
> But we have to be careful to keep the various experimental pieces separat=
e from each other and separate from the official MEI release.
>
> Also, it must be clear that the experiments are just that -- experiments =
-- and that they may or may not be sanctioned in the next release.
>
> --
> p.
>
> __________________________
> Perry Roland
> Digital Curation Services
> University of Virginia Library
> P. O. Box 400155
> Charlottesville, VA 22904-4155
> 434-982-2702 (w)
> pdr4h at virginia.edu
> ________________________________________
> From: mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de [mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-pader=
born.de] On Behalf Of Andrew Hankinson, Mr [andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca=
]
> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 1:12 PM
> To: Music Encoding Initiative
> Subject: Re: [MEI-L] Encoding Square Notation
>
> I think a subcommittee for this is the right idea, and I'd be happy to wo=
rk on this with anyone else who is interested.
>
> We have some people who are currently employed to transcribe the Solemnes=
 notation into MEI, though, so we have a bit of pressure to come up with, a=
t least, a tentative solution to this problem. I think that presents a grea=
t opportunity, though, since we can provide the schema software development=
 as we go as part of this project. This means we wouldn't need to find extr=
a funding for our part of this component.
>
> My biggest concern would be doing that in a way that would be open to the=
 rest of the community, and not just our own little "McGill flavour" of MEI=
 neumed encoding. Dr. Morent was right to point out that the same symbol ha=
s different meanings in different notational contexts, which means that at =
some point the 19th C. and the 9th C. notations would need to be reconciled=
. Rather than trying a top-down approach, I would suggest we tie the develo=
pment of these components to actual practical implementations. This would h=
elp us work out any bugs and edge cases for encoding this notation as we wo=
rk through the repertoire.
>
> In software development, these sorts of things are typically reconciled b=
y having different teams work on experimental sub-components, which are the=
n reviewed by other developers before being included in the "mainline" soft=
ware. I think that presents a very interesting model. We could develop the =
software to meet our needs for the 19th C. repertoire here, in an "experime=
ntal" branch of the MEI Subversion repository. Dr. Morent's team could do s=
omething very similar. At a given point we could use the MEI Neumes "task f=
orce" as an editorial board to reconcile those experimental branches and co=
me up with a sub-schema (or sub-schemas) that can be incorporated into the =
next release of MEI. These branches would be public to the whole community,=
 so anyone would be able to follow their development.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -Andrew
>
>
> On 2010-06-17, at 9:03 AM, Roland, Perry (pdr4h) wrote:
>
>> Stefan, Andrew, et al,
>>
>> I was getting a little wary that this episema thing might be too easy.  =
:)
>>
>> I agree that careful consideration will have to be given to episemata ac=
ross various repertoires.  Since my knowledge of neume notation is very sli=
ght and both you and Andrew are planning/ executing projects dealing with i=
t, you should definitely take the lead here.
>>
>> It seems to me an MEI Neumes Task Force is called for in order to examin=
e the broader context and make recommendations for improving the MEI schema=
.  We could make changes to the current neumes module or perhaps cast the c=
urrent neumes module as a "basic" neumes module then add additional modules=
 for different repertoires -- Solesmes, St. Gall, etc.
>>
>> The question then is, How do we go about creating and funding this task =
force?
>>
>> --
>> p.
>>
>> __________________________
>> Perry Roland
>> Digital Curation Services
>> University of Virginia Library
>> P. O. Box 400155
>> Charlottesville, VA 22904-4155
>> 434-982-2702 (w)
>> pdr4h at virginia.edu
>> ________________________________________
>> From: mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de [mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-pade=
rborn.de] On Behalf Of Prof. Dr. Morent [stefan.morent at uni-tuebingen.de]
>> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 7:40 AM
>> To: Music Encoding Initiative
>> Subject: Re: [MEI-L] Encoding Square Notation
>>
>> Hi Andrew,
>>
>> a few remarks on the issues you raised concerning 19th century
>> Solesmes square notation:
>>
>> As you rightly remarked earlier most of the "additional" signs found
>> in the Liber Usualis or other Solesmes books (including vertical and
>> horizontal strokes) are so called "private" additions of the Abbey of
>> Solesmes to the canonical musical text for Gregorian chant issued as
>> the so called "Vaticana" (which is still the official musical text for
>> the Roman church, although at many places improvable).
>> These so called episemata (which ist the pl.) and the "ictus" have to
>> do with a special rhtyhmic theorie for performing Gregorian chant
>> developed at Solesmes at the end of the 19th century.
>>
>> Today scholars mostly disagree with these theories (and so does today
>> Solesmes) and any fixed rhythmic theory since they don't have a
>> foundation in the earliest neumed manuscripts (although we of course
>> still don't know today, how chant was performed exactly in the Middle
>> Ages).
>>
>> The same is true more or less for the divisiones, which should help
>> the modern singer as a means for structuring the chant.
>>
>> So encoding parts of the Liber Usualis means encoding a 19th century
>> interpretation of Gregorian chant - which could be a valuable task in
>> itself of course.
>>
>> But we have to keep carefully in mind, that i.e. an episema is also a
>> feature and a term used with the ealiest neume families (i.e. Saint
>> Gall neumes).
>>
>> We didn't include this feature yet in the MEI neumes module, since it
>> came out of a project devoted to neumes of the 12th century written on
>> lines.
>>
>> But talking with Perry at the Detmold meeting the plan would be to
>> include these features in the future.
>>
>> In any case we should differentiate between an episema found in a 9th
>> c. neumed source or one in a 19th c. Solesmes book.
>>
>> My best
>> Stefan Morent
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Zitat von "Andrew Hankinson, Mr" <andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca>:
>>
>>> Thanks, Perry.
>>>
>>> RE: The Episemas
>>> Would it be possible to do both a full element and an attribute,
>>> similar to the "dots" attribute on the note and the "<dot />"
>>> element if more information is needed?
>>>
>>> For the attribute, I think "episemae" (pl?) are only attached to the
>>> notes in a ligature - not to the note itself. I would propose an
>>> "episema" attribute that can take the values "both", "horizontal" or
>>> "vertical".
>>>
>>> For the element, we could define an "<episema>" element with a type
>>> attribute with the values "horizontal" or "vertical". This could
>>> then be extended later with xml:id attributes, etc.
>>>
>>> To use the "Sunday at Vespers" chant example, it might be encoded
>>> something like this:
>>>
>>> <syllable>
>>>  <syl>DE_</syl>
>>>  <uneume xml:id=3D"d1e1" name=3D"punctum">
>>>     <note pname=3D"c" oct=3D"4"/>
>>>  </uneume>
>>> </syllable>
>>> <syllable>
>>>  <syl>us</syl>
>>>     <uneume xml:id=3D"d2e1" name=3D"punctum">
>>>        <note pname=3D"c" oct=3D"4" episema=3D"both" />
>>>                **OR**
>>>        <note pname=3D"c" oct=3D"4">
>>>           <episema type=3D"horizontal" />
>>>           <episema type=3D"vertical" />
>>>        </note>
>>>     </uneume>
>>> </syllable>
>>>
>>> RE: The Divisions
>>> Upon further reflection, I would be wary of "overloading" the
>>> barline to function as a division. They look visually similar, but
>>> function quite different - it may be like calling a "punctum" the
>>> same as a "crochet" just because they are solid shapes! :) The
>>> divisions act more like "musical punctuation," and in that way
>>> operate more like a fermata or a rest than they do a barline.
>>>
>>> Would it be possible to add a <division> element to the neumes
>>> module to explicitly encode them?
>>>
>>> Finally,
>>> I think doing extensions on the RelaxNG schema is an excellent idea.
>>> I'm new to the MEI community, so I'm not sure of the best way to
>>> proceed. I would suggest that we can add a "branch" in the
>>> Subversion repository and make our proposed changes there, which can
>>> then be reviewed and incorporated back into the "trunk" for the next
>>> release. That will keep the mainline release versions and any
>>> "experimental" versions separate.
>>>
>>> Otherwise, I'm very open to alternative suggestions.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> -Andrew
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2010-06-16, at 1:47 PM, Roland, Perry (pdr4h) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi, Andrew,
>>>>
>>>> For the episema, I think it would be most appropriate to add an
>>>> attribute to the ineume and uneume elements for episema (which are
>>>> a species of articulation, no?) and an episema/artic subelement
>>>> within ineume and uneme.  This is similar to how note articulations
>>>> are handled in CMN -- the attribute supports simple, hand-entered
>>>> data, while the element is mostly for those situations where one
>>>> might want to record more specific info about the articulation
>>>> symbol, as you probably do in OMR. :)
>>>>
>>>> One question might be, however, whether we want to draw attention
>>>> to the fact that episema are a kind of articulation (and therefore
>>>> use the name "artic" for the element and attribute) or use the
>>>> terminology appropriate for the neume repertoire and add an
>>>> "episema" element and attribute.
>>>>
>>>> "Bar lines" raise similar issues.  The <barline> element is already
>>>> permitted within and between <syllable> elements, so one approach
>>>> might be to just call these lines of division "barlines".  While
>>>> they're not barlines in the modern sense, i.e., they don't mark off
>>>> measures, they look like barlines and they function somewhat like
>>>> barlines, i.e., they mark off something.  If this path is taken,
>>>> the small division "barline" can use the taktplace attribute to
>>>> mark the position of the line, the major division is a single
>>>> barline, the final division is a double barline, but the minor
>>>> division's visual rendition would need extra values in barrend or
>>>> taktplace or perhaps some new attributes to describe them.  Adding
>>>> new attributes might end up being best because they could in fact
>>>> be applied to any barline.
>>>>
>>>> But .....
>>>>
>>>> Since we're about to announce the 2010-05 release of MEI, I don't
>>>> think it's a good time to add new features.  Instead, I suggest
>>>> that we think about temporary additions in the form of extensions
>>>> to the relaxNG schema.  This would give us some "breathing room" to
>>>> try out the extensions and add them to the official schema later.
>>>> (This is how the neumes module was developed.)  After the NEH/DFG
>>>> report is done at the end of July, I'd be happy to work with you on
>>>> these extensions.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> p.
>>>>
>>>> __________________________
>>>> Perry Roland
>>>> Digital Curation Services
>>>> University of Virginia Library
>>>> P. O. Box 400155
>>>> Charlottesville, VA 22904-4155
>>>> 434-982-2702 (w)
>>>> pdr4h at virginia.edu
>>>> ________________________________________
>>>> From: mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de
>>>> [mei-l-bounces at lists.uni-paderborn.de] On Behalf Of Andrew
>>>> Hankinson, Mr [andrew.hankinson at mail.mcgill.ca]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 11:33 AM
>>>> To: Music Encoding Initiative
>>>> Subject: [MEI-L] Encoding Square Notation
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> We had a couple questions about how to encode some features of
>>>> square note notation. See [1] (below) for an example from a chant
>>>> in the Liber Usualis that shows some of the material we're working
>>>> with.
>>>>
>>>> Is there a way to encode the horizontal and vertical episema in
>>>> MEI? They're the lines on, e.g. the second neueme in the "Sunday at
>>>> Vespers" chant that I've attached below.
>>>>
>>>> As far as I can tell, these are articulation marks added by the
>>>> monks at Solemnes in the 19th C., so they're not strictly
>>>> "traditional" square note notation. They serve to guide the
>>>> rhythmic interpretation of the note. I've attached a couple PDF
>>>> pages [2] from the introduction to the Liber that explain how they
>>>> are to be interpreted.
>>>>
>>>> The second feature that we're looking at encoding are the
>>>> divisiones - the "bar lines" of a type, featured in this chant.
>>>> They're used, more or less, as breathing marks. Is there currently
>>>> an accepted way to encode these? I've also attached a PDF [3] from
>>>> the Liber with a few pages explaining how they are used and
>>>> interpreted.
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks for any assistance,
>>>>
>>>> Andrew Hankinson
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://coltrane.music.mcgill.ca/square_notation/sunday_vespers.png
>>>> [2]
>>>> http://coltrane.music.mcgill.ca/square_notation/episema_interpretation=
.pdf
>>>> [3]
>>>> http://coltrane.music.mcgill.ca/square_notation/divisiones_interpretat=
ion.pdf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> mei-l at lists.uni-paderborn.de
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>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
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