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--></style></head><body lang=DE link=blue vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Hi Agnes,</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>thanks for the context. :)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>In the case of a ‘nearly diplomatic edition’ I don’t see the problem with using <del>. It describes the manuscript and it is valid. Indeed, it is only valid because of the <del>... because it is in fact a notation error. In your case, it is corrected by a hand, if not it would be marked as error with <sic>.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>In fact, I assume, you want to preserve this apparent error in your encoding. So, I think, the proper way is to take the toolbox MEI gives you for editorial mark up and use it. When dealing with music manuscripts, we need to deal with errors and they’re not always subtle enough to not conquer every logical validation. The purpose of accurate transcription of a manuscript could contradict the need of a representation system for music notation to be logically correct. It actually needs quite a mess to force a notation software if you want to create an example image of a notation error... in that situations, I embrace the possibilities of editorial mark up in MEI.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>I would not see it as tag abuse to use element in their intended way (marking errors or other source-related phenomena). It would be an abuse, if you try to use another element with a different purpose only to get the stuff somehow encoded.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>My advice would still be: If you want to document this corrected error, use <del>. It’s not a bug, it’s a feature.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>If anyone holds other views, I appreciate to learn more.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Anna<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0cm'><b>Von: </b><a href="mailto:aseipelt@mail.uni-paderborn.de">Agnes Seipelt</a><br><b>Gesendet: </b>Dienstag, 6. März 2018 17:04<br><b>An: </b><a href="mailto:mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de">Music Encoding Initiative</a><br><b>Betreff: </b>Re: [MEI-L] Encoding of lyrics under a rest</p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Dear Axel and Anna, thanks for your answers!<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>@Axel: I had this in mind, too. The problem is that in this case the lyrics are with a not visible note (e.g. a space) and the rest has no lyrics again..<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>@Anna: I don’t mean the del itself is a tag-abuse but the fact that this construction is only valid because of the del. If the text were not deleted, the construction with rest and lyrics ( <rest><lyrics><verse/><lyrics><rest/> ) would not be valid. I hope you understand what I mean ;) <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>For the context: I’d like to encode all the written text (music and text) of the manuscript, like a nearly diplomatic edition. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Best,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Agnes<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Agnes Seipelt M.A.<br>Wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiterin<br>Musikwissenschaftliches Seminar Detmold/Paderborn<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>FORUM Wissenschaft | Bibliothek | Musik<br>Hornsche Str. 39 32756 Detmold<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='color:black'>Tel. +49 5231 975677<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>Am 06.03.2018 um 15:34 schrieb Anna Plaksin <<a href="mailto:annplaksin@gmx.net">annplaksin@gmx.net</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Hi Agnes,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>why do you think using <del> is tag abuse?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>You added a screenshot of a source showing this exact case to us. So, if you want to encode this particular case, I don’t think it is tag abuse to use <del> because it describes the case exactly as it is. Indeed, using <del> without the notion of describing the deleted text below that rest would be tag abuse.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>In another case this discussion could be made about the use of <sic>: Is it appropriate to use <sic> in a case, where something so severely erroneous needs to be encoded that it could not be valid without it?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>I think, such decisions depend on the particular case. A transcription of a manuscript has other requirements than a critical or a performance edition.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>It would be nice, if you could give a little more context of what you actually want to achieve in that particular case. That would help a lot.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Thanks in advance.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Anna</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><div><p class=MsoNormal><b>Von:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b><a href="mailto:aseipelt@mail.uni-paderborn.de"><span style='color:#954F72'>Agnes Seipelt</span></a><br><b>Gesendet:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Dienstag, 6. März 2018 14:12<br><b>An:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b><a href="mailto:mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de"><span style='color:#954F72'>Music Encoding Initiative</span></a><br><b>Betreff:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>[MEI-L] Encoding of lyrics under a rest<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Dear MEI community,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>I hope that someone can help me with an encoding probIem. In the manuscript there are lyrics under a rest (that is obviously a mistake because the text is also crossed out). You can see it in the screenshot.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><img border=0 width=222 height=90 style='width:2.3125in;height:.9375in' id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:7403F6CB-B199-4E77-B664-B8990FB2CD78@wlan.hs-owl.de" alt="cid:7403F6CB-B199-4E77-B664-B8990FB2CD78@wlan.hs-owl.de"></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>I use MEI-CMN (and also tried MEI-all), rests cannot contain lyrics or verse, the only solution would be to integrate lyrics in a del-element within a rest:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:70.8pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='text-indent:35.4pt;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#000096'><rest</span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#F5844C'> </span></span><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#F5844C'>dur</span><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#FF8040'>=</span><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#993300'>"4"</span><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#000096'>></span><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'><br> <span style='color:#000096'><del></span><br> <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span style='color:#000096'><lyrics></span><br> <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span style='color:#000096'><verse/></span><br> <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span style='color:#000096'></lyrics></span><br> <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span style='color:#000096'></del></span> <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br> <span style='color:#000096'></rest></span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#000096'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US>In this case the lyrics are deleted so this would be a solution. But I think it is “tag-abuse” because the del-element is necessary to validate the document.</span> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US>Another idea is to encode the lyrics as control event within the measure:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:70.8pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#000096'>…</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='text-indent:35.4pt;background:white'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;color:#000096'></staff></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'><br> <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span style='color:#000096'><lyrics</span><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='color:#F5844C'> </span></span><span style='color:#F5844C'>synch</span><span style='color:#FF8040'>=</span><span style='color:#993300'>"xy"</span><span style='color:#000096'>></span><br> <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span style='color:#000096'><verse></span><br> <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span style='color:#000096'><syl/></span><br> <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span style='color:#000096'></verse></span><br> <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><span style='color:#000096'></lyrics></span></span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Unfortunately, there is no attribute like @tstamp or @startid to point to the element the lyrics are related to. There is only @synch that “points to elements that are synchronous with the current element”. But I think this would also be “tag-abuse”.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Does somebody have an idea how to solve this problem?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks in advance!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> </span>Agnes <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-----<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Agnes Seipelt M.A.<br>Wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiterin<br>Musikwissenschaftliches Seminar Detmold/Paderborn<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>FORUM Wissenschaft | Bibliothek | Musik<br>Hornsche Str. 39 32756 Detmold<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Tel. +49 5231 975677<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><PastedGraphic-1.png><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>_______________________________________________<br>mei-l mailing list<br><a href="mailto:mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a><br><a href="https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l">https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>