<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Axel and Anna, thanks for your answers!<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">@Axel: I had this in mind, too. The problem is that in this case the lyrics are with a not visible note (e.g. a space) and the rest has no lyrics again..</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">@Anna: I don’t mean the del itself is a tag-abuse but the fact that this construction is only valid because of the del. If the text were not deleted, the construction with rest and lyrics ( <rest><lyrics><verse/><lyrics><rest/> ) would not be valid. I hope you understand what I mean ;) </div><div class="">For the context: I’d like to encode all the written text (music and text) of the manuscript, like a nearly diplomatic edition. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best,</div><div class="">Agnes<br class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Agnes Seipelt M.A.<br class="">Wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiterin<br class="">Musikwissenschaftliches Seminar Detmold/Paderborn<div class="">FORUM Wissenschaft | Bibliothek | Musik<br class="">Hornsche Str. 39 32756 Detmold</div><div class="">Tel. +49 5231 975677<br class=""><br class=""></div></div>
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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">Am 06.03.2018 um 15:34 schrieb Anna Plaksin <<a href="mailto:annplaksin@gmx.net" class="">annplaksin@gmx.net</a>>:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" class="">Hi Agnes,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" class="">why do you think using <del> is tag abuse?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" class="">You added a screenshot of a source showing this exact case to us. So, if you want to encode this particular case, I don’t think it is tag abuse to use <del> because it describes the case exactly as it is. Indeed, using <del> without the notion of describing the deleted text below that rest would be tag abuse.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" class="">In another case this discussion could be made about the use of <sic>: Is it appropriate to use <sic> in a case, where something so severely erroneous needs to be encoded that it could not be valid without it?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" class="">I think, such decisions depend on the particular case. A transcription of a manuscript has other requirements than a critical or a performance edition.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" class="">It would be nice, if you could give a little more context of what you actually want to achieve in that particular case. That would help a lot.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" class="">Thanks in advance.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" class="">Regards,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-GB" class="">Anna<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; border: none; padding: 0cm;" class=""><b class="">Von:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a href="mailto:aseipelt@mail.uni-paderborn.de" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">Agnes Seipelt</a><br class=""><b class="">Gesendet:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Dienstag, 6. März 2018 14:12<br class=""><b class="">An:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a href="mailto:mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">Music Encoding Initiative</a><br class=""><b class="">Betreff:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>[MEI-L] Encoding of lyrics under a rest</div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Dear MEI community,</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">I hope that someone can help me with an encoding probIem. In the manuscript there are lyrics under a rest (that is obviously a mistake because the text is also crossed out). You can see it in the screenshot.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""><img border="0" width="222" height="90" id="_x0033_CF13021-E03B-4A85-AD76-A4F394607F83" src="cid:7403F6CB-B199-4E77-B664-B8990FB2CD78@wlan.hs-owl.de" alt="cid:7403F6CB-B199-4E77-B664-B8990FB2CD78@wlan.hs-owl.de" style="width: 2.3125in; height: 0.9375in;" class=""></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">I use MEI-CMN (and also tried MEI-all), rests cannot contain lyrics or verse, the only solution would be to integrate lyrics in a del-element within a rest:</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 70.8pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: 35.4pt; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 150);" class=""><rest</span><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; color: rgb(245, 132, 76);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>dur</span><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; color: rgb(255, 128, 64);" class="">=</span><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; color: rgb(153, 51, 0);" class="">"4"</span><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 150);" class="">></span><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><br class=""> <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 150);" class=""><del></span><br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 150);" class=""><lyrics></span><br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 150);" class=""><verse/></span><br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 150);" class=""></lyrics></span><br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 150);" class=""></del></span> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""> <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 150);" class=""></rest></span></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 150);" class=""> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">In this case the lyrics are deleted so this would be a solution. But I think it is “tag-abuse” because the del-element is necessary to validate the document.</span> <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Another idea is to encode the lyrics as control event within the measure:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 70.8pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 150);" class="">…</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 35.4pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: 35.4pt; background-color: white;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 150);" class=""></staff></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 150);" class=""><lyrics</span><span style="color: rgb(245, 132, 76);" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>synch</span><span style="color: rgb(255, 128, 64);" class="">=</span><span style="color: rgb(153, 51, 0);" class="">"xy"</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 150);" class="">></span><br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 150);" class=""><verse></span><br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 150);" class=""><syl/></span><br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 150);" class=""></verse></span><br class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 150);" class=""></lyrics></span></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Unfortunately, there is no attribute like @tstamp or @startid to point to the element the lyrics are related to. There is only @synch that “points to elements that are synchronous with the current element”. But I think this would also be “tag-abuse”.</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Does somebody have an idea how to solve this problem?</span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Thanks in advance!</div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span>Agnes </div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="" class="">-----<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="" class="">Agnes Seipelt M.A.<br class="">Wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiterin<br class="">Musikwissenschaftliches Seminar Detmold/Paderborn<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="" class="">FORUM Wissenschaft | Bibliothek | Musik<br class="">Hornsche Str. 39 32756 Detmold<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="" class="">Tel. +49 5231 975677<o:p class=""></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><span id="cid:%3C7403F6CB-B199-4E77-B664-B8990FB2CD78@wlan.hs-owl.de"><PastedGraphic-1.png></span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">mei-l mailing list</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""><a href="mailto:mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de" class="">mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""><a href="https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l" class="">https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l</a></span></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div></body></html>