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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Yes, 1 vu = 1 diatonic step. However, the phrase “diatonic step” doesn’t actually appear in the definition –<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">“<span style="color:black">A single vu is half the distance between the vertical center point of a staff line and that of an adjacent staff line.”<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Even this definition occurs within the description of @vu.height. This is definitely a place where the Guidelines could use some work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">p.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> mei-l [mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Craig Sapp<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 07, 2017 2:58 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Music Encoding Initiative <mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [MEI-L] Coordinate system confusion [and terminology]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">> <span style="font-size:9.5pt">We can/should define a "vu" in relation to diatonic steps though.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">Is that not already the case? Otherwise, I am confused... In other words 1vu = 1 diatonic step (such as E to F, or G-flat to A-sharp since the chromatic alteration does not matter).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 7 July 2017 at 20:45, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) <<a href="mailto:pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu" target="_blank">pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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I have trouble, as I think most folks would, with values like "2-1/2 half-spaces". I can live with "2-1/2 steps", but still prefer "2-1/2 vu". We can/should define a "vu" in relation to diatonic steps though.<br>
<br>
<span class="im">--</span><br>
<span class="im">p.</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<span class="im">> -----Original Message-----</span><br>
<span class="im">> From: mei-l [mailto:<a href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>] On Behalf Of Byrd, Donald A.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2017 11:23 AM<br>
> To: Music Encoding Initiative <<a href="mailto:mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [MEI-L] Coordinate system confusion [and terminology]<br>
><br>
> Sure. As I said, both Gould and Ross talk about "half spaces". --DAB<br>
><br>
> On Jul 7, 2017, at 11:03 AM, "Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h)" <<a href="mailto:pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu">pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
> ><br>
> > Hi Don,<br>
> ><br>
> > You make a good argument for the term "staff-space" or "space". However, MEI doesn't<br>
> use this distance as its unit of measurement. Instead, MEI uses *half the distance* between<br>
> adjacent staff lines, hence the need for a different term. Perhaps "interline distance" and<br>
> "virtual unit" aren't intuitive, but they accurately describe the situation, which "staff-space"<br>
> or "space" do not. Of course, we could start using the entire distance between staff lines<br>
> as the unit, but that would mean changing all existing MEI markup and software.<br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > p.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >> -----Original Message-----<br>
> >> From: mei-l [mailto:<a href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>] On Behalf Of Byrd, Donald<br>
> A.<br>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2017 11:26 AM<br>
> >> To: Music Encoding Initiative <<a href="mailto:mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>><br>
> >> Subject: Re: [MEI-L] Coordinate system confusion [and terminology]<br>
> >><br>
> >> This reminds me of another source of coordinate system confusion,<br>
> >> namely the term for the distance between staff lines. Verovio source<br>
> >> code calls it a "double unit", and half that distance a "virtual unit" or "VU" or just<br>
> "unit"; none of those terms is at all intuitive.<br>
> >> Johannes calls it the "interline distance", which is much better, but<br>
> >> rather long, and "half interline distance" is way too long (and<br>
> >> clumsy). Well, look at Chapter 1 of _Behind Bars_. Her term is<br>
> >> "stave-space", or just "space" for short; half that distance, of<br>
> >> course, is a "half space". Ross' _Art of Music Engraving and<br>
> >> Processing_, the only other book I know of that says much on the subject, just uses the<br>
> term "space'. So, for example, both might describe a certain stem length as "2-1/2 spaces".<br>
> >><br>
> >> I submit "stave-space" (or "staff-space" on my side of the Puddle) as<br>
> >> the full term and "space" for short are both the most standard and the best terms.<br>
> >><br>
> >> --Don<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> On Jul 4, 2017, at 11:16 AM, Daniel Alles<br>
> >> <<a href="mailto:DanielAlles@stud.uni-frankfurt.de">DanielAlles@stud.uni-frankfurt.de</a>><br>
> >> wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >>> Thank you, Johannes, that really helped and made that clear. So I<br>
> >>> can continue using the<br>
> >> Edirom-coordinates for ulx etc.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Zitat von Johannes Kepper <<a href="mailto:kepper@edirom.de">kepper@edirom.de</a>>:<br>
> >>><br>
> >>>> Dear Daniel,<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> that's a real confusion, and we need to make it clearer in the<br>
> >>>> guidelines. *Pixel* coordinates are always with the origin in the<br>
> >>>> top left corner. *Music* coordinates, however, are always bottom<br>
> >>>> up. @ulx and so on are always in pixel units, but @vo (vertical<br>
> >>>> offset) is specified in interline distances (half the distance<br>
> >>>> between two staff lines, or, in other words, the vertical distance<br>
> >>>> between a C4 and a D4, or any other two adjacent notes). If you<br>
> >>>> want to specify that a dynamic is written above its default<br>
> >>>> position, it seems more natural that values go up (i.e., @vo="3").<br>
> >>>> This means that for musical units the origin has to be bottom left.<br>
> >>>> I know it's confusing in the guidelines, and we will address this<br>
> >>>> at some point. If you don't mind, you're invited to prepare<br>
> >>>> something on Git and submit a pull request ;-)<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Hope this helps,<br>
> >>>> jo<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>>> Am 04.07.2017 um 14:48 schrieb Daniel Alles <<a href="mailto:DanielAlles@stud.uni-%0b">DanielAlles@stud.uni-<br>
</a>> <a href="http://frankfurt.de" target="_blank">frankfurt.de</a>>:<br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>> Dear all,<br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>> at the moment, I am a little bit confused about how MEI defines its coordinate<br>
> system:<br>
> >> It is possible to add the attributes @ulx, @uly, @lrx and @lry to for<br>
> >> example a surface, as written in part 12 of the Guidelines, which<br>
> >> places the origin of the coordinate system in the upper left corner. All the examples in<br>
> that part show that behavior, ulx/uly is always 0/0.<br>
> >> This would correspond to the coordinate systems used in SVG and DOM<br>
> >> and (which is what I use for my work) Edirom Editor. On the other<br>
> >> hand it is written in part 22.3, that MEI uses a coordinate system in<br>
> >> which "the y-axis points from bottom up". That would mean, that ulx/uly could never<br>
> be 0/0.<br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>> So now my questions: Is it sufficient to use the coordinates like<br>
> >>>>> in the examples, with<br>
> >> the origin in the upper left corner? Would that "override" MEIs original coordinate<br>
> system?<br>
> >> If not: Isn't the possibility to encode areas from top-left to<br>
> >> bottom-right corners a semantic error in MEI, if the coordinate system is pointing from<br>
> bottom-left to top-right?<br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>> Best,<br>
> >>>>> Daniel<br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>> mei-l mailing list<br>
> >>> <a href="mailto:mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a><br>
> >>> <a href="https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l" target="_blank">
https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l</a><br>
> >><br>
> >> ---<br>
> >> Donald Byrd<br>
> >> Woodrow Wilson Indiana Teaching Fellow Adjunct Associate Professor of<br>
> >> Informatics Visiting Scientist, Research Technologies Indiana<br>
> >> University Bloomington<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >> mei-l mailing list<br>
> >> <a href="mailto:mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a><br>
> >> <a href="https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l" target="_blank">
https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l</a><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > mei-l mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a><br>
> > <a href="https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l" target="_blank">
https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l</a><br>
><br>
> ---<br>
> Donald Byrd<br>
> Woodrow Wilson Indiana Teaching Fellow<br>
> Adjunct Associate Professor of Informatics Visiting Scientist, Research Technologies<br>
> Indiana University Bloomington<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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