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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
Thank you Perry. <br>
<br>
Not to insist -- at all -- but just to understand:<br>
<br>
You are right about the need of going down in the hierarchy when
the segment is not the same for all staves. Well, I thought that
we could go down as needed: segments on one staff (or layer) would
work independently from each other. Why not? (Apart from upsetting
Verovio perhaps.) As for your objection that in multiple staves
(or layers) we wouldn't know how to indicate which layer or staff
the lyrics are attached to, I thought @staff and @layer were there
for that purpose. Am I missing something? <br>
<br>
I see how one can align all the children of <lyric> pointing
out from them (<lg> <l> <syl>). But what if, as
I think Daniel wanted, the task is to have a pointer that points
out from a string of one, two or more words (less than a line,
more than a syllable)? can we record a more arbitrary chunk of
text?<br>
<br>
I do agree on the use of a pointer more specific than @corresp,
but again if you are pointing from the text to somewhere, and the
"elsewhere" is not a single note but a group of notes, where do
you put the xml:id to point to? I would say that to use @sync you
would still need a container grouping that chunk of notes. If we
don't want a container, I guess we need a start/end attribute
pair.<br>
<br>
At the end of the day, any working solution will... work. But the
conversation started with a prompt by Don about difficulties in
text management in Verovio, so ultimately we should only make sure
that we know how to make our friend Verovio happy.<br>
<br>
Giuliano<br>
<br>
<br>
Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) wrote on 06/03/2017 16:41:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The approach Giuliano suggests may work for
single-staff notation, but it won't work for music on multiple
staves because the segment boundary would have to be the same
for all staves. Unless the total duration of the segment is
the same in all layers of all the staves (which is likely not
to be the case because of the polyphonic style with which
mensural notation is usually associated), then the following
won't work --<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><segment><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<staff><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<layer><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <note/></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
</layer><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<layer><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <note/></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <note/></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <note/></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> </layer><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
</staff><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<staff><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<layer><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <note/></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <note/></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> </layer><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
</staff><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<lyrics></lyrics><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""></segment><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Also, in the case of multiple staves, to
which staff are the lyrics to be attached?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Even if
<segment> were used lower in the hierarchy, say at the
layer level --<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><staff><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<layer><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<segment><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <note/></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <note/></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <note/></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> </segment></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
</layer><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""></staff><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><staff><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<layer><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<segment><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <note/></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <note/></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <note/></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> </segment></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
</layer><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""></staff><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">the same
problem would persist.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">The only
possibility left is to forego segmentation other than that
of <staff> and <layer> and associate text
directly with events via @synch --<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><staff><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<layer><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <note xml:id="n1"/></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <note/></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <note/></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> </layer><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""></staff><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""><staff><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<layer><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <note/></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <note/></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <note/></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> </layer><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<lyrics><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<lg><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<l><syl synch="#n1">Hmmm?</syl></l><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
</lg><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
</lyrics><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""></staff><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">This method
works regardless of where the <lyrics> element is
actually placed, be it inside <layer>, <staff>,
or elsewhere. It can be extended to <l> if necessary
--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:windowtext"><l synch="#n1">Hmm? Say
what?</l><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New";color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">In case
you're wondering why @synch and not @startid -- I know it's
somewhat arbitrary, but @startid is reserved for musical
events (like <slur>, <hairpin>, and such) that
are attached to other musical events, while @synch (borrowed
from TEI) is used on elements that may or may not be musical
events (<l>, <p>, <name>). If a new
element for performed text that was always a musical event
were created, then it would use @startid instead of @synch.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">> </span>I
am not sure what the remark about "@align" means at the bottom
of <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/syl/">http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/syl/</a>
-- do we have such attribute on syl?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">That's an error which has been fixed in the
development version.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">p.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
mei-l [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Giuliano Di Bacco<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 06, 2017 6:17 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [MEI-L] Annotations visible on the
music and arbitrary segmentation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Daniel Alles wrote on 06/03/2017 08:57: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">"this text starts on that note and ends
on that note". <o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">This is
where I saw the *possibility* to do also the reverse,
giving priority to the music: Something like <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""><segment></span></span><tt><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></tt><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><tt><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <</span></tt><span
class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New"">staff> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <layer> </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <note/></span></span> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> <note/></span></span> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">
<note/></span></span> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""> </layer></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
</span><tt><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></tt><span
class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""></staff></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
</span><tt><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></tt><span
class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""><lyrics></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""><br>
<span class="element"> <verse></span><tt>exultavit</tt><span
class="element"></verse></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""><br>
<span class="element"> </lyrics></span></span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""></segment></span></span><tt><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></tt><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""><br>
</span>which would mean "this chunk of music here has a
chunk of text under-laid to it". <br>
<br>
Perry: I know that directions and lyrics are two different
things. What I meant to say is that both things can share
the nature of being a chunk of text to be aligned with a
chunk of music. <br>
<br>
Daniel: of course your idea of using pointers is good as
well. But I though that to identify an "arbitrary" chunk
of music may be also useful.<br>
<br>
And this is just an idea, probably there are a hundred
reasons why this may be wrong. Let me clarify that it
sprang to my mind because of something Don mentioned, that
the absence of <measure> in the hierarchy makes it
difficult for Verovio to process textual stuff in the
mensural module. Note above that <segment> is where
<measure> would be in CMN. But I may have
misinterpreted his words! <br>
<br>
One may say that this is relevant to the effort of
reproducing the source as closely as possible, when
ultimately we are supposed to interpret where the scribe
wanted us to sing each syllable. I also believe this, but
I see some good value in encoding the original, especially
if one cannot show the image. So I suppose that I need to
make one step forward and try to get both the diplomatic
and the interpretive edition:<br>
<br>
<span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""><segment></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">...<br>
</span><tt><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></tt><span
class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""><verse></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""><br>
<tt> <choice></tt><br>
<tt> <orig>exultavit</orig></tt><br>
<tt> <reg><syl
align="#">ex</syl><syl>ul</syl><syl>ta</syl><syl>vit</syl></reg></tt><br>
<span class="element"> </choice></span><br>
<span class="element"> </verse></span><br>
</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt">...<br>
</span><span class="element"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""></segment></span></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier
New""><br>
<tt> </tt></span><br>
Here I would use a pointer on <syl> to reconnect
syllables with the <note>s they belong. [I am not
sure what the remark about "@align" means at the bottom of
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/syl/">http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/syl/</a>
-- do we have such attribute on syl?]<br>
<br>
All in all, I am sure there are better methods to do this
-- but I wanted to explain what my words quoted in Don's
first message implied.<br>
<br>
Giuliano<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Daniel Alles wrote on 06/03/2017 08:57:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear all, <br>
<br>
I think one of the problems (at least one of my problems
while encoding MN) is the spacing of the lyrics. It is not
always clear, which syllable belongs where, so a
connection of syllables to notes is not always given. The
possibility to encode the lyrics separately and then
attach them to a staff seems unlikely too, as the
syllables would be spaced according to the rhythm off the
staff (the lyrics would only appear at the beginning of
the staff, as there normally are more notes then
syllables). <br>
<br>
A possibility to connect not only syllables but also whole
phrases of text to phrases of notes would be really nice;
something like "this text starts on that note and ends on
that note". As it is not clear in all the cases how the
underlayed text is to be sung and therefore a spacing of
the lyrics would be an editorial intervention, a solution
like @startid and @endid (or something else) would at
least represent the source material the best. <br>
<br>
Best, <br>
Daniel <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Zitat von Andrew Hankinson <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:andrew.hankinson@mail.mcgill.ca"><andrew.hankinson@mail.mcgill.ca></a>:
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Could someone boil down the decisions
that need to be made, even just in point form, for those
of us who haven't been part of the discussion? <br>
<br>
I'm afraid I don't quite understand what we're supposed to
be commenting on. <br>
<br>
-Andrew <br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mar 4, 2017, at 4:04 PM, Roland,
Perry D. (pdr4h) <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu">
<pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu></a> wrote: <br>
<br>
<br>
Hi, <br>
<br>
Text underlay doesn't have anything to do with <dir>
or <annot>. <br>
<br>
I apologize for the confusion created by the definition of
<verse> -- it was too short and too cryptic. In the
version of MEI currently under development, verse is
defined as "Division of a poem or song lyrics; a stanza."
<br>
<br>
The verse/syl construct is only applicable at the note
level. For musical material which is repeated, but with
different words/lyrics/sung text, <verse> provides a
method of recording which words belong with each
repetition. <br>
<br>
<note> <br>
<verse n="1"> <br>
<syl>Ooh</syl> <br>
</verse> <br>
<verse n="2"> <br>
<syl>Ah</syl> <br>
</verse> <br>
</note> <br>
<br>
For text not directly associated with individual notes,
lyrics/lg should be used instead. <lyrics> occurs
outside the stream of notated events; that is, inside
<measure> and <syllable>, although not within
<staff> or <layer> as might be required for
mensural notation. I'll correct this oversight soon. The
<lg> element is, of course, borrowed from TEI. <br>
<br>
For those situations where the sung text is visually
separate from the musical material, one can use -- <br>
<br>
<lyrics> <br>
<lg> <br>
<l>Oh, say can you see</l> <br>
</lg> <br>
</lyrics> <br>
<br>
To associate each syllable of these words with the notes,
one can add <syl> elements -- <br>
<br>
<lyrics> <br>
<lg> <br>
<l> <br>
<syl synch="#n1">Oh,</syl> <br>
<syl synch="#n2">say</syl> <br>
<syl synch="#n3">can</syl> <br>
<syl synch="#n4">>you</syl> <br>
<syl synch="#n5">see</syl> <br>
</lg> <br>
</lyrics> <br>
<br>
One may object to calling the text of a 15th century motet
"lyrics", but the same markup applies. <br>
<br>
-- <br>
p. <br>
<br>
From: mei-l [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>]
On Behalf Of Giuliano Di Bacco <br>
Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2017 6:28 AM <br>
To: Byrd, Donald A.; Music Encoding Initiative <br>
Subject: Re: [MEI-L] Annotations visible on the music and
arbitrary segmentation <br>
<br>
Thanks, Don: <br>
<br>
I swear that I am not trying to complicate the issue
further, but I should recall that it was another moving
part of the mechanism that originated this discussions on
MEI-Mens, that is, <verse>. That is, also arbitrary
segmentation/alignment of... non-arbitrary text (!)
deserves attention: <br>
<br>
1 - about its use, as regard to the issue described by
Don: how best to record arbitrary (I prefer: "non
standard") placement of text underlay (alignment of chunks
of text in <verse> with <note>s), when not
possible/easy to do it with <syl>. <br>
<br>
2- about its definition. This may be slightly off-topic,
but important: discussion on MEI-Mens reveals that there
may be some confusion about what <verse> is supposed
to be used for. The specifications say that this is for
"lyric verse". Period. First, I am not sure whether
"verse" has to be intended as "a body of metrical
writing/poetry" or a "stanza/strophe of poetry" or a
"single line of a metrical writing" -- definitions in
major Brit+American dictionaries (and people's opinions)
fluctuate between these poles. Second, I am not sure
whether "lyric" stands for the genre (lyric poetry as
opposed to narrative, epic, didactic poetry) or
generically for "the words of a song". Admittedly, in
romance languages both terms are less ambiguous than in
English, so I suppose that we just need to clarify,
through a more generous description, if <verse> is
"whatever poetic text underlay" (my best guess) or what.
It would be very useful to clarify this point while we
talk about "text". The next step would be to decide if we
need/want to represent poetical structures of lower (or
higher) order (it would seem logical to me if we borrowed
stuff from TEI), and how to distinguish text underlay
proper from text-that-goes-with-these-notes but
not-laid-under-the-notes, that is, written/printed
somewhere else in the page (introducing some tag/att like
"underlay" and "displaced" perhaps). But this is really
off-topic (premature) for now. <br>
<br>
As usual, please don't hesitate to correct me if I
misunderstood/misrepresented anything -- it would be
helpful. <br>
<br>
Best, <br>
<br>
Giuliano <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Byrd, Donald A. wrote on 04/03/2017 01:36: <br>
For quite awhile, some of us -- mostly Laurent, Giuliano,
Craig, Perry and I, plus other members of the mensural IG
-- have been discussing the need for annotations with
arbitrary text that are displayed on the music.
Unfortunately, the discussion so far has been scattered
among several places, including the mensural IG mailing
list and Verovio GitHub issues #248 ("Directives in
mensural notation aren't drawn"), 388 ("@n for
<harm>"), and especially 389 ("implement
<annot> display"). You can read #389 at <br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://github.com/rism-ch/verovio/issues/389">https://github.com/rism-ch/verovio/issues/389</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://github.com/rism-ch/verovio/issues/389"><https://github.com/rism-ch/verovio/issues/389></a>
<br>
<br>
and similarly for the other Verovio issues. Anyway, I'll
try to summarize the issues here. <br>
<br>
We've talked about using one of two existing tags for
these annotations, namely <dir> and <annot>.
It seems clear that <dir> is not what we want
because it's specifically intended for performance
directions. As for <annot>s, of course they are
currently only for annotating the encoding, not the music,
and they're not displayed in the SVG. We could add a
@visible attribute to <annot>, but the problem then
is _where_ on the music should they appear? But it seems
to me this is only a serious problem if you expect the
notation engine to position everything automatically, and
that's something that I think is completely unrealistic
for complex music regardless of annotation. I suggest
visible <annot>s should have a crudely-calculated
default position, and it'd be up to the user to specify a
different position if they want. <br>
<br>
Giuliano has raised a related concern. He wrote yesterday
that <br>
<br>
"[N]ot only something like <dir> for arbitrary
non-lyric text is needed, but also some arbitrary
segmentation, to encapsulate portions of music and/or
lyric/non-lyric text where things happen (such as, lyric
text loosely connected with a portion of music, or
passages where the mensuration is uncertain...). <br>
<br>
"If I understand correctly, most of the problem with
<dir> originates from the missing <measure>
level in the hierarchy (at least this creates problems
with Verovio), so I was wondering whether the introduction
of a tag <segment> at that level could be useful.
The latter, contrary to <measure> would be totally
optional, and contrary to <measure> or
<section> would be used without any structural
meaning. <br>
<br>
"This is the point where we felt the need that the
discussion escalates on MEI-L. Non-structural
segmentation is something that TEI introduced lately in
their schema (they call it <seg> when the portion of
text is shorter than a paragraph, and <ab> when an
'anonymous block' of text is found that escapes from the
paragraph structure). In my experience this is one of the
most useful features when dealing with complex documents,
and in past projects I used it also to provide
annotations. I wonder whether there are any reasons for
not having a <seg>-like tag available at any level."
<br>
<br>
Giuliano's ideas make sense to me, but I don't feel very
well qualified to evaluate them. <br>
<br>
I'm looking forward to hearing people's thoughts on all of
this! <br>
<br>
--Don <br>
<br>
<br>
--- <br>
Donald Byrd <br>
Woodrow Wilson Indiana Teaching Fellow <br>
Adjunct Associate Professor of Informatics <br>
Visiting Scientist, Research Technologies <br>
Indiana University Bloomington <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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