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Daniel Alles wrote on 06/03/2017 08:57:
<blockquote type="cite">"this text starts on that note and ends on
that note". </blockquote>
This is where I saw the *possibility* to do also the reverse,
giving priority to the music: Something like <br>
<br>
<div class="indent2"> <font size="-1"><tt><span
data-indentation="2" class="element"><segment></span></tt><tt>
</tt></font>
<div class="indent3"><font size="-1"><tt> <</tt><tt><span
data-indentation="3" class="element">staff<span
class="attributevalue"></span>> </span></tt></font>
<div class="indent4"><font size="-1"><tt> </tt><tt><span
data-indentation="4" class="element"> <layer<span
class="attributevalue"></span>> </span></tt></font>
<div class="indent5"><font size="-1"><tt> </tt><tt><span
data-indentation="5" class="element"> <note/</span></tt><tt><span
data-indentation="5" class="element">></span></tt></font>
</div>
<div class="indent3">
<div class="indent5"><font size="-1"><tt> </tt><tt><span
data-indentation="5" class="element"> <note/</span></tt><tt><span
data-indentation="5" class="element">></span></tt></font>
<div class="indent5"><font size="-1"><tt> </tt><tt><span
data-indentation="5" class="element">
<note/</span></tt><tt><span
data-indentation="5" class="element">></span></tt></font>
</div>
</div>
<font size="-1"><tt><span data-indentation="5"
class="element"></span></tt><tt><span
data-indentation="4" class="element">
</layer></span></tt><br>
<tt> </tt><tt><span data-indentation="3" class="element"></staff></span></tt><br>
<tt> </tt><tt><span data-indentation="3" class="element"><lyrics><br>
</span></tt><tt><span data-indentation="4"
class="element"> <verse></span></tt><tt>exultavit</tt><tt><span
data-indentation="4" class="element"></verse></span></tt>
<tt><span data-indentation="3" class="element"><br>
</lyrics></span></tt></font> </div>
</div>
</div>
<font size="-1"><tt> </tt><tt><span data-indentation="2"
class="element"></segment></span></tt><tt> </tt></font></div>
<font size="-1"><tt> </tt></font><tt><br>
</tt>which would mean "this chunk of music here has a chunk of
text under-laid to it". <br>
<br>
Perry: I know that directions and lyrics are two different things.
What I meant to say is that both things can share the nature of
being a chunk of text to be aligned with a chunk of music. <br>
<br>
Daniel: of course your idea of using pointers is good as well. But
I though that to identify an "arbitrary" chunk of music may be
also useful.<br>
<br>
And this is just an idea, probably there are a hundred reasons why
this may be wrong. Let me clarify that it sprang to my mind
because of something Don mentioned, that the absence of
<measure> in the hierarchy makes it difficult for Verovio to
process textual stuff in the mensural module. Note above that
<segment> is where <measure> would be in CMN. But I
may have misinterpreted his words! <br>
<br>
One may say that this is relevant to the effort of reproducing the
source as closely as possible, when ultimately we are supposed to
interpret where the scribe wanted us to sing each syllable. I also
believe this, but I see some good value in encoding the original,
especially if one cannot show the image. So I suppose that I need
to make one step forward and try to get both the diplomatic and
the interpretive edition:<br>
<br>
<font size="-1"><tt><span data-indentation="4" class="element"><segment></span></tt><tt><br>
</tt>...<br>
<tt> </tt><tt><span data-indentation="4" class="element"><verse></span></tt><tt><br>
<choice><br>
<orig></tt><tt><tt><span data-indentation="4"
class="element"></span></tt><tt>exultavit</tt><tt><span
data-indentation="4" class="element"></span></tt></orig><br>
<reg><syl align="#">ex</tt><tt><tt></syl></tt></tt><tt><tt><tt><syl></tt></tt>ul</tt><tt><tt></syl></tt></tt><tt><tt><tt><syl></tt></tt>ta</tt><tt><tt></syl></tt></tt><tt><tt><tt><syl></tt></tt>vit</tt><tt><tt></syl></reg></tt></tt><tt><span
data-indentation="4" class="element"><br>
</choice><br>
</verse><br>
</span></tt>...<br>
<tt><span data-indentation="4" class="element"><font size="-1"><tt><span
data-indentation="4" class="element"></segment></span></tt><tt><br>
</tt></font>
</span></tt></font><br>
Here I would use a pointer on <syl> to reconnect syllables
with the <note>s they belong. [I am not sure what the
remark about "@align" means at the bottom of
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/syl/">http://music-encoding.org/documentation/3.0.0/syl/</a> -- do we have
such attribute on syl?]<br>
<br>
All in all, I am sure there are better methods to do this -- but I
wanted to explain what my words quoted in Don's first message
implied.<br>
<br>
Giuliano<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Daniel Alles wrote on 06/03/2017 08:57:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:20170306085755.Horde.RcHr08cttuft6FA-uw7hXce@webmail.server.uni-frankfurt.de"
type="cite">Dear all,
<br>
<br>
I think one of the problems (at least one of my problems while
encoding MN) is the spacing of the lyrics. It is not always clear,
which syllable belongs where, so a connection of syllables to
notes is not always given. The possibility to encode the lyrics
separately and then attach them to a staff seems unlikely too, as
the syllables would be spaced according to the rhythm off the
staff (the lyrics would only appear at the beginning of the staff,
as there normally are more notes then syllables).
<br>
<br>
A possibility to connect not only syllables but also whole phrases
of text to phrases of notes would be really nice; something like
"this text starts on that note and ends on that note". As it is
not clear in all the cases how the underlayed text is to be sung
and therefore a spacing of the lyrics would be an editorial
intervention, a solution like @startid and @endid (or something
else) would at least represent the source material the best.
<br>
<br>
Best,
<br>
Daniel
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Zitat von Andrew Hankinson
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:andrew.hankinson@mail.mcgill.ca"><andrew.hankinson@mail.mcgill.ca></a>:
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Could someone boil down the decisions that
need to be made, even just in point form, for those of us who
haven't been part of the discussion?
<br>
<br>
I'm afraid I don't quite understand what we're supposed to be
commenting on.
<br>
<br>
-Andrew
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Mar 4, 2017, at 4:04 PM, Roland,
Perry D. (pdr4h) <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu"><pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu></a> wrote:
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi,
<br>
<br>
Text underlay doesn't have anything to do with <dir> or
<annot>.
<br>
<br>
I apologize for the confusion created by the definition of
<verse> -- it was too short and too cryptic. In the
version of MEI currently under development, verse is defined
as "Division of a poem or song lyrics; a stanza."
<br>
<br>
The verse/syl construct is only applicable at the note level.
For musical material which is repeated, but with different
words/lyrics/sung text, <verse> provides a method of
recording which words belong with each repetition.
<br>
<br>
<note>
<br>
<verse n="1">
<br>
<syl>Ooh</syl>
<br>
</verse>
<br>
<verse n="2">
<br>
<syl>Ah</syl>
<br>
</verse>
<br>
</note>
<br>
<br>
For text not directly associated with individual notes,
lyrics/lg should be used instead. <lyrics> occurs
outside the stream of notated events; that is, inside
<measure> and <syllable>, although not within
<staff> or <layer> as might be required for
mensural notation. I'll correct this oversight soon. The
<lg> element is, of course, borrowed from TEI.
<br>
<br>
For those situations where the sung text is visually separate
from the musical material, one can use --
<br>
<br>
<lyrics>
<br>
<lg>
<br>
<l>Oh, say can you see</l>
<br>
</lg>
<br>
</lyrics>
<br>
<br>
To associate each syllable of these words with the notes, one
can add <syl> elements --
<br>
<br>
<lyrics>
<br>
<lg>
<br>
<l>
<br>
<syl synch="#n1">Oh,</syl>
<br>
<syl synch="#n2">say</syl>
<br>
<syl synch="#n3">can</syl>
<br>
<syl synch="#n4">>you</syl>
<br>
<syl synch="#n5">see</syl>
<br>
</lg>
<br>
</lyrics>
<br>
<br>
One may object to calling the text of a 15th century motet
"lyrics", but the same markup applies.
<br>
<br>
--
<br>
p.
<br>
<br>
From: mei-l [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>] On
Behalf Of Giuliano Di Bacco
<br>
Sent: Saturday, March 04, 2017 6:28 AM
<br>
To: Byrd, Donald A.; Music Encoding Initiative
<br>
Subject: Re: [MEI-L] Annotations visible on the music and
arbitrary segmentation
<br>
<br>
Thanks, Don:
<br>
<br>
I swear that I am not trying to complicate the issue further,
but I should recall that it was another moving part of the
mechanism that originated this discussions on MEI-Mens, that
is, <verse>. That is, also arbitrary
segmentation/alignment of... non-arbitrary text (!) deserves
attention:
<br>
<br>
1 - about its use, as regard to the issue described by Don:
how best to record arbitrary (I prefer: "non standard")
placement of text underlay (alignment of chunks of text in
<verse> with <note>s), when not possible/easy to
do it with <syl>.
<br>
<br>
2- about its definition. This may be slightly off-topic, but
important: discussion on MEI-Mens reveals that there may be
some confusion about what <verse> is supposed to be used
for. The specifications say that this is for "lyric verse".
Period. First, I am not sure whether "verse" has to be
intended as "a body of metrical writing/poetry" or a
"stanza/strophe of poetry" or a "single line of a metrical
writing" -- definitions in major Brit+American dictionaries
(and people's opinions) fluctuate between these poles.
Second, I am not sure whether "lyric" stands for the genre
(lyric poetry as opposed to narrative, epic, didactic poetry)
or generically for "the words of a song". Admittedly, in
romance languages both terms are less ambiguous than in
English, so I suppose that we just need to clarify, through a
more generous description, if <verse> is "whatever
poetic text underlay" (my best guess) or what. It would be
very useful to clarify this point while we talk about "text".
The next step would be to decide if we need/want to represent
poetical structures of lower (or higher) order (it would seem
logical to me if we borrowed stuff from TEI), and how to
distinguish text underlay proper from
text-that-goes-with-these-notes but not-laid-under-the-notes,
that is, written/printed somewhere else in the page
(introducing some tag/att like "underlay" and "displaced"
perhaps). But this is really off-topic (premature) for now.
<br>
<br>
As usual, please don't hesitate to correct me if I
misunderstood/misrepresented anything -- it would be helpful.
<br>
<br>
Best,
<br>
<br>
Giuliano
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Byrd, Donald A. wrote on 04/03/2017 01:36:
<br>
For quite awhile, some of us -- mostly Laurent, Giuliano,
Craig, Perry and I, plus other members of the mensural IG --
have been discussing the need for annotations with arbitrary
text that are displayed on the music. Unfortunately, the
discussion so far has been scattered among several places,
including the mensural IG mailing list and Verovio GitHub
issues #248 ("Directives in mensural notation aren't drawn"),
388 ("@n for <harm>"), and especially 389 ("implement
<annot> display"). You can read #389 at
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/rism-ch/verovio/issues/389">https://github.com/rism-ch/verovio/issues/389</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://github.com/rism-ch/verovio/issues/389"><https://github.com/rism-ch/verovio/issues/389></a>
<br>
<br>
and similarly for the other Verovio issues. Anyway, I'll try
to summarize the issues here.
<br>
<br>
We've talked about using one of two existing tags for these
annotations, namely <dir> and <annot>. It seems
clear that <dir> is not what we want because it's
specifically intended for performance directions. As for
<annot>s, of course they are currently only for
annotating the encoding, not the music, and they're not
displayed in the SVG. We could add a @visible attribute to
<annot>, but the problem then is _where_ on the music
should they appear? But it seems to me this is only a serious
problem if you expect the notation engine to position
everything automatically, and that's something that I think is
completely unrealistic for complex music regardless of
annotation. I suggest visible <annot>s should have a
crudely-calculated default position, and it'd be up to the
user to specify a different position if they want.
<br>
<br>
Giuliano has raised a related concern. He wrote yesterday that
<br>
<br>
"[N]ot only something like <dir> for arbitrary non-lyric
text is needed, but also some arbitrary segmentation, to
encapsulate portions of music and/or lyric/non-lyric text
where things happen (such as, lyric text loosely connected
with a portion of music, or passages where the mensuration is
uncertain...).
<br>
<br>
"If I understand correctly, most of the problem with
<dir> originates from the missing <measure> level
in the hierarchy (at least this creates problems with
Verovio), so I was wondering whether the introduction of a tag
<segment> at that level could be useful. The latter,
contrary to <measure> would be totally optional, and
contrary to <measure> or <section> would be used
without any structural meaning.
<br>
<br>
"This is the point where we felt the need that the discussion
escalates on MEI-L. Non-structural segmentation is something
that TEI introduced lately in their schema (they call it
<seg> when the portion of text is shorter than a
paragraph, and <ab> when an 'anonymous block' of text is
found that escapes from the paragraph structure). In my
experience this is one of the most useful features when
dealing with complex documents, and in past projects I used it
also to provide annotations. I wonder whether there are any
reasons for not having a <seg>-like tag available at any
level."
<br>
<br>
Giuliano's ideas make sense to me, but I don't feel very well
qualified to evaluate them.
<br>
<br>
I'm looking forward to hearing people's thoughts on all of
this!
<br>
<br>
--Don
<br>
<br>
<br>
---
<br>
Donald Byrd
<br>
Woodrow Wilson Indiana Teaching Fellow
<br>
Adjunct Associate Professor of Informatics
<br>
Visiting Scientist, Research Technologies
<br>
Indiana University Bloomington
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