<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Hi James,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I'm forwarding your message to the W3C list to MEI-L to answer your questions. I don't really want to spam their list...</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I'll answer inline below, prefixed with AH for my responses.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""><div class="moz-cite-prefix">
Hi Zoltan, All,<br class="">
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<blockquote cite="mid:CADGv7xrt_tG0_8UHpPnr0UrXODv+8Y8Y5s4m5ioR-A8D16rK_A@mail.gmail.com" type="cite" class="">
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<div style="font-size:12.8px" class="">Tido's recently published <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://tido.github.io/mei-customization/" target="_blank" class="">MEI customization</a> <span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">sparked a lively discussion...</span></div>
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and<br class="">
<blockquote cite="mid:CADGv7xrt_tG0_8UHpPnr0UrXODv+8Y8Y5s4m5ioR-A8D16rK_A@mail.gmail.com" type="cite" class="">
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<div style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">For
more information on MEI Go! please keep an eye on the </span><span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">MEI-L mailing list</span><span style="font-size:12.8px" class=""> for </span><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/pipermail/mei-l/2016/001796.html" target="_blank" style="font-size:12.8px" class="">updates</a><span style="font-size:12.8px" class=""> and discussions. </span><span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">While it may not be the solution
that the Community Group is looking for, I would like to
draw attention to this effort as point of reference.</span></div>
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<br class="">
I joined the MEI-L mailing list yesterday.<br class="">
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://tido.github.io/mei-customization/" target="_blank" class="">MEI
customization</a> <span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">says</span><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class=""><b class="">We hope that this customisation can also
be the starting point for a common basic MEI customisation</b>
to be shared between several projects in future. We welcome
comments and suggestions through GitHub issues.</blockquote>
I've decided<span style="font-size:12.8px" class=""> </span><span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">to post my comments and suggestions
(questions actually) here, rather than on GitHub. Please repost
there and/or to MEI-L if you think that's a good idea.<br class="">
<br class="">
</span><span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">I'm a beginner with MEI
customisation, and need some help:<span style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
Briefly: My problem with current encodings of CWMN is that they
all assume that duration symbols have fixed meanings in a score,
and that measures therefore "add up" at the symbol level. This
ignores the performance practice tradition that is always
associated with any humanly readable notation. In Mozart, for
example, the last quaver under a slur is never played in the
same way as the first. Ignoring performance practice traditions
goes back at least to the invention of the metronome in the 19th
century. I'm old enough to remember how awful the first computer
renditions of Bach sounded in the early 1980s...<br class="">
I also think that the famous collapse around 1900 had more to do
with the disintegration of fixed tempi, than with the exhaustion
of harmonic possibilities. The notation collapsed because the
conventions make no sense in the absence of humanly perceptible
tempo.<br class=""></span></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>AH: MEI makes no such assumptions. For rhythm and duration we differentiate between "@dur" (written duration) and "@dur.ges" (performed duration). Both of these are available on note and rest objects.</div><div><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""><span style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">
<br class="">
Whether this analysis is correct or not is, however, immaterial.
:-)<br class="">
<br class="">
I want to make an MEI customisation that uses most of the
symbols that are used by CWMN, but without assuming tempo. If
there is no tempo, then neither tuplets nor grace-notes make
sense. It should also be possible for the description of <i class="">more
than one</i> temporal instantiation to be stored inside the
XML elements that represent the score's graphics.<br class=""></span></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>AH: I'm not sure I understand this. Tempo is generally expressed by a playback mechanism. It can be hinted at in the encoding, but most systems have controls for overriding it. </div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""><span style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">
I think that CWMN (as defined by both MusicXML and your project)
could be regarded as a superset of such a customisation. If the
<i class="">default</i> temporal realisation of such a score defined all
the duration symbols to have fixed meanings, then
<measures> could be made to add up at the symbol level by
adding tuplet symbols (as annotations) and turning some notes
into grace-notes.<br class=""></span></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>AH: We like to think of it in the opposite: MEI is a superset of everything that is possible in notation, while CWMN is one subset of this. </div><div><br class=""></div><div>I'm really not sure where you're going with the duration symbols and fixed meanings, though. Why would you be adding gracenotes and tuplets?</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""><span style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">
<br class="">
One advantage of having a tempo-less customisation would be that
lossless transcriptions of recordings can be made, without going
through "quantisation". I <i class="">compose</i> with milliseconds...<br class=""></span></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>AH: MEI doesn't assume tempo. In fact, MEI doesn't assume anything. The "@dur.ges" attribute on note objects allows you to record duration on "time-consuming" elements (primarily notes and rests) in terms of "ppq (MIDI clicks and MusicXML 'divisions'), Humdrum **recip values, beats, seconds, or mensural duration values."</div><div><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""><span style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">
<br class="">
So my initial questions are:<br class="">
1. Can <measure> elements be redefined so that they do not
have to add up at the symbol level? The different <layer>s
in the measure must however add up in real time (milliseconds)
in any one temporal realisation stored in the score.<br class=""></span></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>AH: Yes-ish. Measures do not have a performed duration, they're just assumed to be the performed duration of the "time-consuming" child elements.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""><span style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">
2. Can you imagine such a hierarchy of customisations? I'm also
thinking of the container hierarchy that could become part of
the W3C standard for describing <i class="">any </i>polyphonic music
notation.<br class=""></span></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>AH: A customization is not arranged in a hierarchy. The primary reason for a customization is to produce a schema that will validate an encoding. </div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""><span style="font-size:12.8px" class=""><span style="font-size:12.8px" class="">
<br class="">
All the best,<br class="">
James</span><br class="">
<br class="">
</span>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://james-ingram-act-two.de/">http://james-ingram-act-two.de</a><br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/notator">https://github.com/notator</a>
</div>
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