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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">MEI doesn’t mix declarative and procedural markup any more than TEI, does it? A reasonable mix is necessary for a general-use markup scheme. Furthermore, I don’t agree
that what I’m proposing is procedural markup. Saying that an item in a list has a bullet or is marked with a Roman numeral isn’t procedural in nature, it’s descriptive. It’s just as descriptive as using <title>War and Peace</title> to indicate that the content
is a title and not a person’s name, just in a different way.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I agree that you might not want to use this kind of thing for MEI that describes born-digital material (where the author controls the rendition), but it’s essential for describing
already-existing material, especially if it is non-standard in some way, for example if it contains a printing error that caused an item in an otherwise-numbered list to be labelled with an “A”. How could one possibly *describe* this situation without saying
anything about the bullets? Putting this kind of information in a CSS file is just moving the problem. The markup no longer contains any information about the bullets, but the CSS does and without it (the CSS) the MEI doesn’t effectively *describe* its source
so the two have to be interpreted together. There’s a false sense of having separated the content and presentation in this case.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">p.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> mei-l [mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Raffaele Viglianti<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 09, 2015 5:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Music Encoding Initiative<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [MEI-L] list-related changes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The bad idea is adding procedural markup to lists. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Text encoding in MEI mixes declarative and procedural markup, particularly through <rend>. I think I understand the overall need for it, for example as a catch-all when converting from other music notation systems that keep procedural information
about text. But it's not an element that I would necessarily want to use when creating new MEI files. So I would avoid adding more procedural markup in the text encoding side of MEI.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) <<a href="mailto:pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu" target="_blank">pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I’m not sure what you think is a bad idea or what you mean mean by “already compromised”. Can you elaborate please?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> mei-l [mailto:<a href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de" target="_blank">mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Raffaele Viglianti<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 09, 2015 5:00 PM</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<b>To:</b> Music Encoding Initiative<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [MEI-L] list-related changes<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I think this is a bad idea. Whatever target format / platform will display the MEI should be able to access a basic text-styling system that can target, if not the MEI directly,
at least a target output. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Text encoding in MEI is already compromised, so we either continue being careless in that matter, or we can avoid making it worse.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Another approach would be adopting a system that would make it easy to embed styling, such as TEI's @<a href="http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-att.global.rendition.html#tei_att.rendition" target="_blank">rendition</a>
(and <<a href="http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-rendition.html" target="_blank">rendition</a>>). In this way you can have the cake and eat it too.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Raff<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 4:31 PM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) <<a href="mailto:pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu" target="_blank">pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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Putting the mark in the markup --<br>
<br>
[Unicode for bullet] item 1<br>
[Unicode for bullet] item 2<br>
etc.<br>
<br>
denies the opportunity to treat the bullet separately from the item content. Your suggested approach mixes what is presentational with actual content. That's generally a bad idea.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<br>
> -----Original Message-----<br>
> From: mei-l [mailto:<a href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de" target="_blank">mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>] On Behalf Of<br>
> Johannes Kepper<br>
> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 4:09 PM<br>
> To: Music Encoding Initiative<br>
> Subject: Re: [MEI-L] list-related changes<br>
><br>
> I'm sorry to say, but I see no need to include that in MEI. If I want to be<br>
> descriptive, I can include the mark in the encoding itself. But of course you're<br>
> free to convince me and anyone else who's not convinced yet :-)<br>
><br>
> jo<br>
><br>
> Am 09.11.2015 um 22:03 schrieb Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h)<br>
> <<a href="mailto:pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu" target="_blank">pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu</a>>:<br>
><br>
> ><br>
> > I'd like to make it easier to control the formatting of lists from within the<br>
> document markup rather than pushing it off entirely to CSS or othe, external<br>
> formatting procedures.<br>
> ><br>
> > To this end, I plan to remove the current @form attribute and create a new<br>
> att.listrend attribute class containing @mark and @order attributes --<br>
> ><br>
> > <attList><br>
> > <attDef ident="mark" usage="opt"><br>
> > <desc>Contains the character string (usually a single character, such as a<br>
> bullet,<br>
> > box, dash, etc.) that precedes each item in the list.</desc><br>
> > <datatype><br>
> > <rng:data type="string"/><br>
> > </datatype><br>
> > </attDef><br>
> > <attDef ident="order" usage="opt"><br>
> > <desc>Indicates the system used to generate the character string (usually<br>
> a single<br>
> > character) that precedes items in an ordered list.</desc><br>
> > <datatype><br>
> > <rng:data type="NMTOKEN"/><br>
> > </datatype><br>
> > <valList type="semi"><br>
> > <valItem ident="alphalower"><br>
> > <desc>Lower case letters.</desc><br>
> > </valItem><br>
> > <valItem ident="alphaupper"><br>
> > <desc>Upper case letters.</desc><br>
> > </valItem><br>
> > <valItem ident="arabic"><br>
> > <desc>Arabic numerals.</desc><br>
> > </valItem><br>
> > <valItem ident="romanlower"><br>
> > <desc>Lower case Roman numerals.</desc><br>
> > </valItem><br>
> > <valItem ident="romanupper"><br>
> > <desc>Upper case Roman numerals.</desc><br>
> > </valItem><br>
> > </valList><br>
> > </attDef><br>
> > </attList><br>
> ><br>
> > Any list without one of these attributes (a list cannot have both) should be<br>
> assumed to be "simple"; that is, without any mark or order. This is NOT<br>
> procedural markup, just somewhat more descriptive than what used to be<br>
> allowed. J<br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > p.<br>
> > ________________________________<br>
> > Perry Roland<br>
> > University of Virginia<br>
> > P. O. Box 400874<br>
> > Charlottesville, VA, 22904<br>
> > <a href="tel:434-982-2702" target="_blank">434-982-2702</a> (w)<br>
> > pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu<br>
> ><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > mei-l mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de" target="_blank">mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a><br>
> > <a href="https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l" target="_blank">
https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l</a><br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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