<div dir="ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>Great thoughts, Perry!<br><div><br></div><div>1. Re allowing @dur on beatRpt:</div><div>Strictly speaking this could be understood as the duration of the beatRpt itself - and while one may argue that this must, inevitably be the duration of the material that it repeats, and thinking about it, I am not in favour of this kind of indirection.</div><div><br></div><div>2. Defining the beat duration on the beatRpt</div><div>I prefer this solution because it is more explicit, and also very intuitive: for a beatRpt it defines what the beat is.</div><div><br></div><div>In either case, the data type could be either very similar to that of @dur, or indeed a syntax borrowed from elsewhere. I'd be alert to prepare for obscure cases when the simple duration+dots approach doesn't work: for example, 14/16 meter could be divided into 3 beats, first two lasting 5 16th-note each, the last one for 4 16th-note. The first and second beats can't be expressed by means of "dotting" quarter, eights, sixteenth, etc. notes. </div><div><br></div><div>3. Fixing the confusion surrounding beats: </div><div>Having had a glance through the usage of beat throughout the guidelines, it seems to me that it wouldn't be necessary to define @meter.unit and @meter.count in terms of beats: if we could simply avoid the use of "beat" in the definition of @meter.count and @meter.unit, the confusion may just walk away... In the meantime, I am not suggesting ripping off the use of "beat" at every instance when we talk about the resolution of tstamps however: in simple meter the beat and meter.unit coincide, so this is perfectly fine:</div><div><br></div><div>"<i>For example, a value of "0m+3" in 4/4 time indicates that the element bearing this attribute, a slur
for example, ends on beat 3 of the same measure where it started.</i>"<br></div><div><div><br></div></div><div>In short, my suggestion is to reserve the term "beat" for the musical beat exclusively. Inclusion of a short paragraph about how tstamps are understood in compound meter should only make things even clearer.</div><div><br></div><div>Best</div><div>Zoltan</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2015-09-03 20:15 GMT+01:00 Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu" target="_blank">pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Thanks for contributing to the discussion, Zoltán. As usual, I too am in favor of multiple encoding methods, especially in the early phases of trying to figure out the best
approach – we can deprecate all but one at the point where the “right” solution is obvious.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">That being said, and despite what I said earlier about the co-occurrence of @copyof and @plist, I think the two approaches here are:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">1. add @plist to <beatRpt> to allow explicit referencing of the events to be repeated<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">2. add another attribute, yet to be named, to permit encoding of the amount of time to be repeated<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">The first option is super easy – just make <beatRpt> a member of att.plist. The differentiation of @plist and @copyof must remain clear, however. @plist identifies the
events to be repeated while @copyof identifies the element *<b>which the beatRpt element is a copy of</b>*. The likelihood of any element being a copy of another one is rare, so the use of @copyof should also occur very infrequently.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">The second option is somewhat more complex, but still practical. I just don’t think we can overload @dur or @dur.ges for this purpose. I suggest that syntax similar to
that of @dur.ges be used but another name selected, perhaps “beat” or “beatDef”, as its purpose is to define what constitutes a beat in a particular context. Here, we *<b>are</b>* talking about metrical/musical beats, not MEI beat units. So, in a measure
of 6/8, @beatDef should take the value “4.r” (using Humdrum notation). This defines a repeated beat as a dotted quarter note. Suggestions for a better name for this attribute are greatly appreciated.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Adding these new attributes may help with automated resolution of a beatRpt sign, but their presence can’t be required, meaning that can’t rely on them entirely in the determination
of how much time or which events should be repeated. There always has to be a fallback approach that makes a reasonable guess based on the context.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I’ve had a cursory look at where/how the term “beat” is used in descriptions and documentation and I think that simply replacing “beat” with “beat unit” won’t work well.
It probably would be better to look for places to insert new text about how MEI treats compound meters literally, for example in section 4.1.5 “Timestamps and Durations”.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Sound good?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">--<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">p.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> mei-l [mailto:<a href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de" target="_blank">mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Komíves Zoltán<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 01, 2015 5:55 AM</span></p><div><div class="h5"><br>
<b>To:</b> Music Encoding Initiative<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [MEI-L] Beat in 6/8<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi All, <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As far as I understand there have been two suggestions to solve the problem of determining the material that is repeated by <beatRpt>:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">1. use @dur attribute on beatRpt to indicate how much of the preceding material is repeated. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2. provide explicitly what material is repeated.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think both solutions make sense. The first one is concise, and has no complicated implications, while the second one provides more flexibility - I sense there could be situations when the (1) would not suffice, perhaps some multi-voice
situation when only the material in one voice is repeated, but don't want to think about this too hard now... :) <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Could we perhaps allow both solutions, so encoders could chose whichever fits best their use case?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regarding the discussion of beat in compound meters, I also think it's perhaps best to stay away from defining the beat as such, but I also support to clarify terminology: using "beat unit" rigorously could be a good enough solution.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best<u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Zoltan<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2015-08-27 22:57 GMT+01:00 Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) <<a href="mailto:pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu" target="_blank">pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu</a>>:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Here are some possibilities for moving forward -- <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Using @copyof on beatRpt makes it possible to indicate which events are to be repeated; for example --
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><measure><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <note dur="8" xml:id="n1"/><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <note dur="8" xml:id="n2"/><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <note dur="8" xml:id="n3"/><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <beatRpt copyof="#n1 #n2 #n3"/><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"></measure><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">or perhaps<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><measure><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <beam xml:id="beam1"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <note dur="8" xml:id="n1"/><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <note dur="8" xml:id="n2"/><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <note dur="8" xml:id="n3"/><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"></beam><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <beatRpt copyof="#beam1"/><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"></measure><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">In previous discussions about using the copyof attribute, it has been determined that the copy is a modified "deep" one; that is, that the result tree has the same structure
as the designated node with certain attribute values removed or modified, like xml:id, for example.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">There's a slight problem with using @copyof, however, in that it doesn't allow multiple URIs. We could allow multiple values, but I'm not sure what it means to say that
something is a copy of more than one thing. That means it's a synthesis, doesn't it? :-) So, I'm a little reluctant to add @copyof and I lean more toward adding @plist instead. Of course, this also gets us into a little trouble as both @copyof and @plist
would be allowed. As a work-around, a new @targets (notice the plural) could be added to beatRpt.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Another option is to allow beatRpt to contain content -- either new events that duplicate those that the repetition sign refers to or <ptr> elements that reference the
events; for example,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><measure><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <note dur="8" xml:id="n1"/><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <note dur="8" xml:id="n2"/><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <note dur="8" xml:id="n3"/><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <beatRpt><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <note dur="8" xml:id="n4"/><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <note dur="8" xml:id="n5"/><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <note dur="8" xml:id="n6"/><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> </beatRpt><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"></measure><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">or<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><measure><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <note dur="8" xml:id="n1"/><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <note dur="8" xml:id="n2"/><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <note dur="8" xml:id="n3"/><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <beatRpt><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <ptr target="#n1"/><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <ptr target="#n2"/><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <ptr target="#n3"/><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> </beatRpt><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"></measure><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Each one of these options allows an easy "toggling" between the repetition sign and the material inside. The 2nd method may be more flexible because of the use of references.
The down-side for both of these possibilities is that they are more verbose than using an attribute.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Yet another approach is to create a generic copy element, say, <copyOf> that represents a copy of any event. That may be too general, however. For example, the function
of the copyOf (beatRpt, mRpt, etc.) would have to be placed in an attribute. This could lead to mis-use and it would be more difficult to control where certain functions could occur. But, Johannes has put this forward in the past, so he's better qualified
to address this approach than I.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">--<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">p.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">__________________________<br>
Perry Roland<br>
Music Library<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">University of Virginia<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">P. O. Box 400175<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Charlottesville, VA 22904<br>
<a href="tel:434-982-2702" target="_blank">434-982-2702</a> (w)<br>
pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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</div>
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<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="color:black">
<hr size="3" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> mei-l [<a href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de" target="_blank">mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>]
on behalf of Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) [<a href="mailto:pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu" target="_blank">pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 27, 2015 11:48 AM<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><br>
<b>To:</b> Music Encoding Initiative<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [MEI-L] Beat in 6/8<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Ok, this gives us a place to start. It seems to me, however, that rather than talking about how much time it repeats (as this reignites the confusion around "beat" and
"beat unit"), it may be better to investigate ways to explicitly indicate which *events* are to repeated.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">--<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">p.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><br>
__________________________<br>
Perry Roland<br>
Music Library<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">University of Virginia<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">P. O. Box 400175<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Charlottesville, VA 22904<br>
<a href="tel:434-982-2702" target="_blank">434-982-2702</a> (w)<br>
pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> mei-l [<a href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de" target="_blank">mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>]
on behalf of Laurent Pugin [<a href="mailto:lxpugin@gmail.com" target="_blank">lxpugin@gmail.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 27, 2015 11:18 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Music Encoding Initiative<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [MEI-L] Beat in 6/8</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">The problem is that when I encounter a <beatRpt> in an encoding I would like to know how much time it repeats. I understand that it represent the repetition of the material that occur on a previous musical beat,
as you say. However, since the duration of what the musical beat is not encoded explicitly (as far as I understand) it does not seem to be possible to know it (i.e., how much time it repeats.).
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Laurent<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) <<a href="mailto:pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu" target="_blank">pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Did you mean to say it is "unfortunate" that MEI doesn't use "beat" as an attribute?
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">And how does one allow an attribute directly "in" <measure> or <staff>?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">We should stay away from determination of meter in MEI. As we've already heard, it often introduces a lot of subjectivity and interpretation. That kind of thing is
best left to a different, analytical layer.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">I still don't see the point -- what does this have to do with beatRpt?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">--<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">p.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><br>
__________________________<br>
Perry Roland<br>
Music Library<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">University of Virginia<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">P. O. Box 400175<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Charlottesville, VA 22904<br>
<a href="tel:434-982-2702" target="_blank">434-982-2702</a> (w)<br>
pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> mei-l [<a href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de" target="_blank">mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>]
on behalf of Laurent Pugin [<a href="mailto:lxpugin@gmail.com" target="_blank">lxpugin@gmail.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 27, 2015 10:45 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Music Encoding Initiative<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [MEI-L] Beat in 6/8</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">What seems fortunate to me is that "beat" is not used as attribute in MEI (yet?)
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Maybe we could use it when we need to specify a musical beat that is not the meter.unit. As I suggested with <beatRpt>, it would be assumed to be 1 in most cases, but could be "3" in 6/8 (or similar) when the desired
musical beat is 4. . In 5/8, we could imagine having an attribute value such as "2+3" if the beat is expected to be 4 - 4. . Along the same lines, it could be useful to allow the attribute directly in <measure> (or even <staff>?) when the beat structure is
changing.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Laurent<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 4:06 PM, Benjamin Wolff Bohl <<a href="mailto:bohl@edirom.de" target="_blank">bohl@edirom.de</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:black">Dear Craig,<br>
many thanks for your always helpful advice!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:black">Am 27.08.2015 um 11:08 schrieb Craig Sapp:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">The problem is the ambiguous/conflicting terminology in this sentence:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">On 27 August 2015 at 01:19, Benjamin Wolff Bohl <<a href="mailto:bohl@edirom.de" target="_blank">bohl@edirom.de</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:inherit;color:black;border:none windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in">meter.unit</span><span style="color:black"> contains the number indicating the beat unit, that is, the bottom number of the meter signature.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><br>
This is only ambiguous/conflicting if you are to smart and know too much about music! Regarding the term "beat" in the closed system of MEI everything is obvious an unambiguous.<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">The problem is that in compound meters such as 6/8<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meter_%28music%29#Compound_meter" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meter_(music)#Compound_meter</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">The "musical beat" is a dotted quarter note, while the MEI "beat unit" is an eighth note. Using the word "beat" in such a way is unfortunate as it can conflict with the musical definition of a beat, and this will
continue to cause mis-interpretation of what a beat is.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><br>
This then would promote using another term in MEI in order to avoid confusion, let's say "meter-unit-n".<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">The duration of a beat is necessary for music analysis, since the treatment of dissonance and consonance is tied to the location of a note on or off of the beat.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><br>
This could be a beating argument, if it is the purpose and intention of MEI to do musical analysis.<br>
Is it? I'd rather say it provides a basis for doing analysis, the logic of the analysis is not part of MEI, although the result of the analysis might be encoded in MEI.<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">The musical beat is also needed to automatically beam notes. Implicit interpretation of the musical beat can be done with 6/8 by assigning it to be a dotted quarter note, but there are exceptions to this definition
which would require a way of assigning an explicit duration to the musical beat.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><br>
"Automatically" beaming notes is not part of the encoding but of the rendering logic an thus will not be reflected in (pure-logical-domain-)MEI.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">For example, the middle slow movements in a piano sonata may be labeled as 6/8, with the beat actually assigned to the eighth note, in which case the "musical beat" and the MEI "beat unit" are the same.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Another more common corner case would be time signatures such as 3/8. Is that a compound meter with one beat in a measure, or a simple meter with three beats in the measure (a variant on a 3/4 meter also possible
in slow movements)? <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">And of course in modern music with irregular meters such as 5/8, the musical beats in the measure may may have two beats as 3+2 eighth notes, or 2+3 or a mixture of both in different measures.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><br>
The two above are only a problem if we consider "beat" as being the "musical beat". If we consider it to be "meter-unit-n" instead, everything would work out fine.<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Compound meters resulted in a degeneration of mensural notation. Since modern rhythms are always "imperfect", to emulate a perfect mensuration dots are added to the notes (which would usually be implicit the mensural
metric equivalent). These are represented as compound meters in modern notation (who knows why they did not invent "2/4." time signatures instead of "6/8" for such cases). The problem is that modern time signatures are ambiguous, since 6/8 could be considered
like C-dot, or it could be considered as a non-compound meter with 6 beat at the eighth-note level.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><br>
Ok, air is getting thin for me...<br>
I've had a problem with modern transcription of mensural notation ever since I first encountered it, or more precisely I was whinig about modern notation being so restrictive due to having abandoned mensuration signs. I would prefer modern transcription sticking
to mensuration signs and logic instead of adding dots, but I might not be able to change the world about this...<br>
<br>
But to bang the drum for "meter-unit-n": Couldn't this problem also be solved by <mensur> or some additional attribute on <scoreDef> or <staffDef>?
<br>
<br>
Considering the case of a modern transcription of "perfect" mensural notation using <beatRpt> in terms of "meter-unit-n" would result in completely different applicable cases compared to using it in the sense of "musical beat". An there it is the again,<br>
** ambiguous and conflicting**<br>
<br>
Just for the sake ofplaying advocatus diavoli 3;-)<br>
Benni<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">I whine to Perry every once in a while about this, so we can wait for his reply on how to disambiguate such cases...<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">-=+Craig<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<pre><span style="color:black">_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
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