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Hi all,<br>
<br>
many thanks for bringing up this interesting discussion, I was not
aware that the definition of "beats" was so uncertain throughout
music history! Nevertheless I think that in MEI the definition of
beat is very clear.<br>
<br>
If we consider <a
href="http://music-encoding.org/documentation/2.1.1/cmn/">http://music-encoding.org/documentation/2.1.1/cmn/</a>
and the description of the following scoreDef attributes (4.1.2
Defining Score Parameters for CMN):<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<table class="specDesc" style="border-width: 0px 0px 1px;
border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(237, 237,
237); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida
Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
font-weight: normal; margin: 0px 0px 20px 1em; outline: 0px;
padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; border-collapse:
collapse; border-spacing: 0px; width: 643px; line-height: 2;
color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-variant: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: left; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 1;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(252, 252, 252);">
<tbody style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size:
14px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px;
outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">
<tr style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size: 14px;
font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px;
outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">
<td class="Attribute" style="border: 0px; font-family:
inherit; font-size: 14px; font-style: inherit;
font-weight: 700; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px;
vertical-align: top; text-align: left;"><span class="att"
style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size:
14px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin:
0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align:
baseline;">meter.count</span></td>
<td style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size:
14px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: normal; margin:
0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;
text-align: left;">captures the number of beats in a
measure, that is, the top number of the meter signature.
It must contain a decimal number or an additive expression
that evaluates to a decimal number, such as 2+3.</td>
</tr>
<tr style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size: 14px;
font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin: 0px;
outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">
<td class="Attribute" style="border: 0px; font-family:
inherit; font-size: 14px; font-style: inherit;
font-weight: 700; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px;
vertical-align: top; text-align: left;"><span class="att"
style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size:
14px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: inherit; margin:
0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align:
baseline;">meter.unit</span></td>
<td style="border: 0px; font-family: inherit; font-size:
14px; font-style: inherit; font-weight: normal; margin:
0px; outline: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;
text-align: left;">contains the number indicating the beat
unit, that is, the bottom number of the meter signature.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</blockquote>
<br>
and further the description of timestamps (4.1.5 Timestamps and
Durations):<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);
font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida
Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: 20.7999992370605px; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 1; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important;
float: none; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 252);">The<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
class="term" style="border: 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',
Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 13px;
font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; margin: 0px; outline:
0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(102,
102, 102); font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: 20.7999992370605px; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: 1; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 252);">timestamp</span><span
style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',
Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 13px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 20.7999992370605px;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 1;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display:
inline !important; float: none; background-color: rgb(252, 252,
252);"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(</span><span
class="att" style="border: 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',
Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 13px;
font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; margin: 0px; outline:
0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(102,
102, 102); font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: 20.7999992370605px; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: 1; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 252);">tstamp</span><span
style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',
Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 13px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 20.7999992370605px;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 1;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display:
inline !important; float: none; background-color: rgb(252, 252,
252);">) of a musical event is calculated in relation to the
meter of the current measure and resembles the so-called ‘beat’.
In a common time measure with four quarter notes, the timestamp
of each quarter equals its beat position in the measure: The
first quarter has a timestamp of 1, the second has a timestamp
of 2, and so on.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></blockquote>
<br>
If we then consider 4.2.9 Repetition in CMN the descrition of
beatRpt might be a bit confusing, as the only definition of the
"logical domain" implication is the first sentence:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);
font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida
Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: 20.7999992370605px; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 1; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important;
float: none; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 252);">The<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><a
class="link_odd_elementSpec"
href="http://music-encoding.org/documentation/2.1.1/beatRpt"
style="border: 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica,
Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style:
normal; font-weight: normal; margin: 0px; outline: 0px; padding:
0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(36, 140, 200);
transition: all 0.2s ease; text-decoration: none; font-variant:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 20.7999992370605px;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 1;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(252, 252, 252);">beatRpt</a><span
style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',
Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 13px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 20.7999992370605px;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 1;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display:
inline !important; float: none; background-color: rgb(252, 252,
252);"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>element is
used to represent a single repeated beat.</span></blockquote>
<br>
All the rest of the paragraph deals with "visual domain" aspects
exclusively:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);
font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida
Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 13px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: 20.7999992370605px; orphans: auto;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 1; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display: inline !important;
float: none; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 252);"><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Its visual rendition can
be recorded using the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span
class="att" style="border: 0px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',
Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 13px;
font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; margin: 0px; outline:
0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(102,
102, 102); font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: 20.7999992370605px; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: 1; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 252);">rend</span><span
style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: 'Helvetica Neue',
Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 13px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 20.7999992370605px;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 1;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; display:
inline !important; float: none; background-color: rgb(252, 252,
252);">attribute. This attribute indicates the number of slashes
required to render the appropriate repeat symbol, which, as
demonstrated in the preceding figure, depends on the rhythmic
content of the beat being repeated. When a beat that consists of
a single note or chord is repeated, the repetition sign is
typically rendered as a single thick, slanting slash; therefore,
the value '1' should be used. The following values should be
used when the beat is divided into even notes: 4ths or 8ths=1,
16ths=2, 32nds=3, 64ths=4, 128ths=5. When the beat is comprised
of mixed duration values, the symbol is always rendered as 2
slashes and 2 dots.</span></blockquote>
<br>
So to summarize:<br>
A beatRpt always repeats a timespan with a duration according to the
"locally valid" <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:scoreDef/@meter.unit">scoreDef/@meter.unit</a>.<br>
<br>
At least that's how I understand it, an how we used it in Freischütz
Digital ;-)<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Benjamin<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">***********************************************************
Musikwissenschaftliches Seminar Detmold/Paderborn
BMBF-Projekt "Freischütz Digital"
Benjamin Wolff Bohl
Gartenstraße 20
D–32756 Detmold
Tel. +49 (0) 5231 / 975-669
Fax: +49 (0) 5231 / 975-668
E-Mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bohl@edirom.de">bohl@edirom.de</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.freischuetz-digital.de">http://www.freischuetz-digital.de</a>
***********************************************************</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 27.08.2015 um 01:08 schrieb Eleanor
Selfridge-Field:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:DM2PR02MB512C42AE55548D705761430C3600@DM2PR02MB512.namprd02.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">To pick up threads from Don's and Laurent's posts, the main reason MuseData allows a double representation in certain rhythmic situations is precisely because in eighteenth-century music the logic of written notation and the logic of sound-oriented files such as MIDI simply do not coincide.
Some instructive instances occur in Corelli--e.g. in movements in compound meter (6/8, 12/8), where active parts such as violins maintain a running series of eighth notes grouped conventionally by threes, but the accompanying bass parts are notated in C (common time) and the units are undotted quarter notes.
In Bach, a common situation involves a beamed group consisting of a dotted quarter followed by three (or five) thirty-seconds (i.e., non-binary subdivisions). The values in performances are subject to interpretation.
In short, it does not take an irregular meter to produce irregular groupings or "illegal" polyphonic alignments.
Eleanor
Eleanor Selfridge-Field
Consulting Professor, Music
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-3076, USA
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:esfield@stanford.edu">esfield@stanford.edu</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:esfield@stanford.edu"><mailto:esfield@stanford.edu></a>
Profile: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://profiles.stanford.edu/eleanor-selfridge-field">https://profiles.stanford.edu/eleanor-selfridge-field</a>
-----Original Message-----
From: mei-l [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>] On Behalf Of Byrd, Donald A.
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 7:03 AM
To: Music Encoding Initiative
Subject: Re: [MEI-L] Beat in 6/8
Executive summary: In 6/8 specifically, I think it should be a dotted quarter, not an eighth. Now some discussion of the issues:
I think most of us would agree that whether the beat is an 8th or a dotted quarter in 6/8 (or 9/8, 12/8, etc.) depends mostly on the tempo, but I doubt if we want to infer that from metronome marks, much less verbal tempo indications! FWIW, I'd guess the dotted-quarter beat is more common.
Of course the same question arises in compound meters with denominators other than 8. Is the beat in 9/16 a 16th or a dotted 8th? It even worse in irregular meters. In 5/8, a measure might have five beats of an 8th each, or a quarter followed by a dotted quarter, or a dotted quarter followed by a quarter!
But in _Behind Bars_, p. 230, Gould solves the problem in terms of notation with the rule that a single diagonal line means to repeat the previous beamed group of total duration of a quarter (or dotted quarter), two diagonal lines a duration of an 8th (or dotted 8th), three diagonal lines a duration of… You get the idea. So, while she calls these beat repeats, she defines them in terms of beaming! But of course she's talking about usage for new scores, not what appears in Weber or Beethoven or whever's manuscripts!
--Don
On Aug 26, 2015, at 2:22 AM, Laurent Pugin <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lxpugin@gmail.com"><lxpugin@gmail.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi,
I am looking at beat repeats (<beatRpt>) and I am not sure how to deal with them in 6/8 (or 9/8, etc). Defining the beat in 6/8 is a recurrent issue. Looking at timestamps, it seems that each 8th has to be considered as a beat. But in the beatRpt examples in the guidelines it seems that a 4.th is considered as a beat.
Considering that the number of slashes have to be encoded in the @rend attribute, rendering the beat repeats properly is not that much of an issue because we could just ignore the beat duration and just display the dashes. (Only rendering repeats of mixed duration values would be an issue since it is not clear how this has to be encoded.) However, this would not work if we need to align them with other voices, for example. Any recommendation on this particular issue (<beatRpt>) and on how to consider beats in 6/8 in general?
Best,
Laurent
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<pre wrap="">
---
Donald Byrd
Woodrow Wilson Indiana Teaching Fellow
Adjunct Associate Professor of Informatics Visiting Scientist, Research Technologies Indiana University Bloomington
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