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Hi Andrew and Laurent,<br>
<br>
@Andrew: Yes! thats what I'm after!<br>
So now I can see how I can read it (if the information is there).
I'm a bit surprised by location of this information in an mei file.
I think this information shouldn't be in the meta-data part of the
file, this is content, I expected to find this info somewhere inside
the 'music' element. I clicked trough some example files and found
that the @instr and @instrGrp aren't used, so I'm still stuck. I
know now how a file can be created in a way this info is clear, but
I'm interesting in reading files. And I'm still confident this info
should (also) be inside the music element, it's semantical data, not
meta-data.<br>
<br>
So I think it would be good to have a system to make this more
clear. And to rule out any ambiguity this system should be required
for any part using more than one staff.<br>
<br>
@Laurent: yes! would be great, but like I said above, I think this
actually isn't meta-data. And Also, this @instr in <layerDef>
and <staffDef> should be required if a part isn't one whole
staff.<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
Hans<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2015-05-26 10:48, Laurent Pugin
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ306HbZ3WbeBeJ29M59rjGmg4W1a646KQWJ7WP3p3ZBOQRbTA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Andrew and Hans,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This makes sense to me. I guess you would also need to have
@instr in <layerDef> when there is more than one
instrument represented in one staff, wouldn't you?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Laurent</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 12:56 AM,
Andrew Hankinson <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:andrew.hankinson@mail.mcgill.ca"
target="_blank">andrew.hankinson@mail.mcgill.ca</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">I think I know what you're
trying to do: You're trying to ensure that a part that
gets extracted to the right amount of staves, correct?
That, given an ensemble work that features a piano, your
software does not try to extract two different parts for
the right and left hands of the piano. Correct?
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I believe what you are looking for is in the
<instrumentation>, <ensemble>,
<instrVoice> and <instrVoiceGrp> cluster of
tags. <instrVoice> contains @count which indicates
the number of performers. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.music-encoding.org/documentation/guidelines2013/instrVoice"
target="_blank">http://www.music-encoding.org/documentation/guidelines2013/instrVoice</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Looking this over I might suggest to move @instr out
of the MIDI module and specify that it should point to
an <instrVoice> element, and perhaps do the same
and have @instrGrp / <instrGrp> pairs as well.
That way you could do:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><instrumentation></div>
<div> <instrVoiceGrp n="1"><br>
<instrVoice n="1" code="sa">Violin
I</instrVoice><br>
<instrVoice n="2" code="sa">Violin
II</instrVoice><br>
<instrVoice n="3"
code="sb">Viola</instrVoice><br>
<instrVoice n="4"
code="sc">Violoncello</instrVoice></div>
<div> </instrGrp></div>
<div> <instrVoice n="6" code="pf"
count="1">Piano</instrVoice><br>
</instrumentation></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And then:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><staffGrp instrGrp="1"> ... </staffGrp></div>
<div><staffGrp instr="6"></div>
<div> <staffDef> ...treble staff...
</staffDef></div>
<div> <staffDef> ...bass staff... </staffDef></div>
<div></staffGrp></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The other possibility to move instrGrp/instrDef out
of the MIDI module and have them replace
instrVoiceGrp/instrVoice.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Anyone else out there have any ideas?</div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Andrew</div>
</font></span>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite"><span class="">
<div>On May 22, 2015, at 8:01 AM, Hans
Vereyken <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:hans@neoscores.com"
target="_blank">hans@neoscores.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
</span>
<div><span class="">
<div dir="ltr">I think this problem can be
tackled with an @players. @players can be
an attribute of staffGrp and means that
the content is played by x
player(s)/instrument(s). It defaults to
the amount of staves in the group.
<div>The @players can also be an attribute
of staffDef and means that the staff is
performed by x player(s)/instrument(s).
It defaults to 1;</div>
<div>@players is required if it's isn't
default.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Would this be possible?</div>
</div>
</span>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
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<div class="gmail_quote"><span class="">On
22 May 2015 at 13:34, Andrew Hankinson <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:andrew.hankinson@mail.mcgill.ca"
target="_blank">andrew.hankinson@mail.mcgill.ca</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</span>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr"><span>
<div>
<div
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">
<div
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">Notating
multiple parts on
one staff can be
done with the
layerDef, looks
good, thanks.</div>
<div
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span><span>
<blockquote
style="margin:0px 0px
0px
40px;border:none;padding:0px">
<div>
<div
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">
<div
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><span
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">one part on multiple staves is a
bit trickier,
but can still
be done. You
can use the
@staff and
@layer
attributes on
events
(chords,
notes, rests)
to "assign"
that event to
a particular
staff and/or
layer.</span><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span><span><span
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">One
part on multiple
staves is a very
common thing (I'm a
professional pianist)
and shouldn't be 'a
bit trickier'. Besides
I'm working on reading
files, not creating
them. I didn't look
through all the MEI
examples but this far
I didn't found a
single example
demonstrating
this technique. Ruling
out all files who
don't follow this
technique would be a
massive mistake.</span></span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I didn't mean to suggest
that it's uncommon; I just
meant that within the confines
of XML, dealing with
overlapping or crossing
hierarchies requires a bit of
extra semantics. The link I
sent you to the cross-staff
example should be able to give
you a start on dealing with
cross-staff notation.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="gmail_extra"><span>
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<div class="gmail_quote"><span>On
22 May 2015 at 09:54,
Andrew Hankinson <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:andrew.hankinson@mail.mcgill.ca" target="_blank">andrew.hankinson@mail.mcgill.ca</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</span>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word"><br>
<div>
<blockquote
type="cite"><span>
<div>On May
22, 2015, at
9:16 AM, Hans
Vereyken <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:hans@neoscores.com" target="_blank">hans@neoscores.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
</span>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Hi
Andrew,
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span>I
see, my
subject title
is a bit
confusing,
better would
be: How to
distinguish
different
players in
the <staffDef>
and
<staffGrp>
elements.<br>
<div><br>
</div>
</span><span>
<div><span
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">"If
you have two
different
staves, these
are two
different
players,
regardless of
the label (a
left and a
right hand on
a piano could
be thought of
as two
different
"players"
since they're
playing two
separate
parts)."</span><br>
</div>
</span><span>
<div><span
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">I
strongly
disagree on
that, it is
played by a
single player
and it is a
single part.
This is even
more clear if
you think
about harp
parts,
(very often)
one 'voice'
(strangely called
'layers' in
MEI) traveling
across 2
staves.</span></div>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But they
are
independent
lines. In
theory, you
could have two
one-handed
people playing
a piano and it
would make no
practical
difference. :)
The
voice/layer
nomenclature
in MEI comes
from a desire
to separate a
melodic line
from any idea
of "voice
leading."
(i.e., not
wanting to
confuse the
practical
separation of
independent
instrument
lines from the
music-theoretical
notions of
harmonic and
melodic
progression). </div>
<span><br>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div><span
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">Another
problem is
cross staff
notes, in your
opinion these
are the same
as something
that would be
called 'cross
part notes'
(since each
staff is a
part). Think
about it,
'cross part
notes'... I
don't even
know any
contemporary
composer who
did this.</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">I
think this
information
should be
added to the
MEI format,
and I think it
can be done
with an
attribute in
the staffGrp
element
indicating
that all
staves in that
group are
performed by
one
player/instrument
(or group of
players, eg,
1st Violin).</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>Sorry, I'm
still not
clear on what
you are
asking. Have
you looked at
the @instr
attribute on
staffGrp? Is
this what you
are looking
for? Or is it
something
else?</div>
<span><br>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div><span
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">This
way you can
keep numbering
the staves top
to bottom for
the whole
score, but
it's clear
which staves
are played by
the same
player/instrument
and should be
grouped
together when
playing around
with parts.</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">I
agree that it
needs to be
possible to
hide a single
staff in a
part with
multiple
staves,
but semantically spoken
it's a big
difference
with hiding a
part.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>Would the
`layerDef`
mechanism help
clear this up?
You can define
a specific
layer to
correspond to
a specific
voice, in the
same way you
can define a
specific
staffDef to
define a
specific
staff. Then
you can trace
a specific
layer
("voice")
throughout the
work, having
pre-defined it
in your
scoreDef/staffDef
block.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For an
example, see
the Ponchielli_LarrivoDelRe.mei
file, where
you have the
percussion
instruments on
a single
staff:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><staffDef
n="18"
xml:id="P18"
label="Batteria"
label.abbr="Batt."
lines="1"
clef.shape="perc"
key.sig="4f"
key.mode="major"
spacing="117"></div>
<div>
<layerDef
n="1"></div>
<div>
<instrDef
n="Snare_Drum"
xml:id="P18-X2"/></div>
<div>
</layerDef></div>
<div>
<layerDef
n="2"></div>
<div>
<instrDef
n="Bass_Drum"
xml:id="P18-X1"/></div>
<div>
</layerDef></div>
<div></staffDef></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>and then
in the body
(for example):</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><staff
n="18"><br>
<layer
n="1"><br>
<beam><br>
<note
xml:id="d1e1818"
pname="f"
oct="4"
dur="16"
stem.dir="up"<br>
instr="#P18-X2"
pnum="61"/><br>
<note
xml:id="d1e1837"
pname="f"
oct="4"
dur="16"
stem.dir="up"<br>
instr="#P18-X2"
pnum="61"/><br>
</beam><br>
</layer><br>
<layer
n="2"><br>
<rest
xml:id="d1e1859"
dur="8"/><br>
</layer><br>
</staff></div>
</div>
<span><br>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div><span
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">At
the same time
it would be
great to have
another
attribute in
the staffDef
element
indicating
that this
staff
is performed by
multiple
players, for
instance 1st
and 2nd
Violins are
notated as 1st
and 2nd voice
(again, called
layers in
MEI). This
would be very
helpfull in
reading some
chorus score's
to (in the MEI
examples this
would clear up
different
parts
in Altenburg_Macht_auf_die_Tor).</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>I think the
layerDef
mechanism will
help here too.</div>
<span><br>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div><span
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br>
</span></div>
<div>To be
sure we are
talking about
the same:</div>
<div>- staff:
needed to
notate music</div>
<div>- part:
music
performed by a
single
player/instrument</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One part
can be notated
on multiple
staves,
multiple parts
can be notated
on a single
staff. For me
part is
definitely not
the same as
staff.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>Multiple
parts on a
single staff
is pretty
easy; one part
on multiple
staves is a
bit trickier,
but can still
be done. You
can use the
@staff and
@layer
attributes on
events
(chords,
notes, rests)
to "assign"
that event to
a particular
staff and/or
layer.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>See: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.verovio.org/examples/features/cross-staff.mei"
target="_blank">http://www.verovio.org/examples/features/cross-staff.mei</a>
for an example
of how this
might work
(and <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.verovio.org/features.xhtml?id=cross-staff"
target="_blank">http://www.verovio.org/features.xhtml?id=cross-staff</a>
for a sample
rendering).</div>
<br>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div><span
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">Thanks</span></div>
</div>
<div><span
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">Hans</span></div>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><span><br
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style="color:rgb(136,136,136);font-family:'Helvetica
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Neue',Helvetica,Arial;font-size:11px">
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<div
class="gmail_quote"><span>On
22 May 2015 at
00:58, Andrew
Hankinson <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:andrew.hankinson@mail.mcgill.ca"
target="_blank">andrew.hankinson@mail.mcgill.ca</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
</span>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0
0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi
Hans,<br>
<br>
Welcome to
MEI!<br>
<br>
Are you
looking for
the equivalent
of the MIDI
instrument
that would
perform these
parts? Or
something
else?<br>
<br>
If you have
two different
staves, these
are two
different
players,
regardless of
the label (a
left and a
right hand on
a piano could
be thought of
as two
different
"players"
since they're
playing two
separate
parts). If you
have a staff
that is
"hidden" (for
example, if
you have an
instrument
that does not
play on
certain pages)
you still need
to define the
staff and give
it a number.
This number
should be
constant
throughout the
score. If it
does not play
in a specific
place, it will
simply not
appear in the
measure (as
far as I
understand
it).<br>
<br>
If you're in a
renderer and
you want to
switch all the
"n=2" parts
off, then, you
would simply
hide it
whenever you
have <staff
n="2" ...>.
The "2" does
not refer to
the second
staff on any
given page;
rather, it
refers to the
second staff
defined in a
score,
regardless of
whether it
appears or
not.<br>
<br>
-Andrew<br>
<div>
<div><br>
> On May
21, 2015, at
4:26 PM, Hans
Vereyken <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:hans@neoscores.com" target="_blank">hans@neoscores.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hi,<br>
><br>
> This is
my first post
to the MEI
mailing list.<br>
> I'm
implementing
MEI into our
music renderer
and am having
trouble
getting all
the info I
need about
staves.<br>
><br>
> I
searches the
documentation
and mail
archives for
answers but
wasn't able to
find what I'm
looking for.<br>
><br>
> So each
staff is
declared
seperatly,
with the
<staffGrp>
certain groups
and there
symbols are
declared.
Although a
brace usually
means that the
staves within
are the same
player (e.g.
piano brace),
it is not
enough to be
sure of it.<br>
><br>
> In the
example files
I looked at
'Altenburg_Ein_feste_Burg',
the relevant
xml:<br>
><br>
>
<scoreDef
meter.count="4"
meter.unit="4"
meter.sym="common"
key.sig="0"
key.mode="major"><br>
>
<staffGrp><br>
>
<staffGrp
symbol="brace"
barthru="true"><br>
>
<staffDef
n="1"
clef.line="2"
clef.shape="G"
key.sig="0"
lines="5"
label="Trompete
1"
label.abbr="Tr
1"/><br>
>
<staffDef
n="2"
clef.line="2"
clef.shape="G"
key.sig="0"
lines="5"
label="Trompete
2"
label.abbr="Tr
2"/><br>
>
<staffDef
n="3"
clef.line="2"
clef.shape="G"
key.sig="0"
lines="5"
label="Trompete
3"
label.abbr="Tr
3"/><br>
>
</staffGrp><br>
>
<staffGrp
symbol="bracket"
barthru="true"><br>
>
<staffDef
n="4"
clef.shape="G"
clef.dis="8"
clef.dis.place="below"
clef.line="2"
label="Pos1
Tro 4"
key.sig="0"
label.abbr="P
1 Tr 4"
lines="5"/><br>
>
<staffDef
n="5"
clef.line="4"
clef.shape="F"
lines="5"
key.sig="0"
label="Posaune
2"
label.abbr="Pos
2"/><br>
>
<staffDef
n="6"
label="Posaune
3"
label.abbr="Pos
3"
clef.line="4"
clef.shape="F"
key.sig="0"
lines="5"/><br>
>
</staffGrp><br>
>
</staffGrp><br>
>
</scoreDef><br>
><br>
> and:
Chopin_Etude_op.10_no.9:<br>
><br>
>
<scoreDef
meter.count="6"
meter.unit="8"
key.sig="4f"
key.mode="minor"><br>
>
<staffGrp
symbol="brace"
barthru="true"><br>
>
<staffDef
n="1"
clef.shape="G"
lines="5"
clef.line="2"/><br>
>
<staffDef
n="2"
clef.line="4"
clef.shape="F"
lines="5"/><br>
>
</staffGrp><br>
>
</scoreDef><br>
><br>
> So in
both cases I
have a group
of staves with
a brace
symbol, how
should I know
which staves
are played by
which player.<br>
> I can try
to sniff the
labels and by
guessing the
semantic
meaning of
'Trompete
1,2,3' and
conclude these
has to be 3
different
parts. In the
second example
this isn't
possible, so
this won't
work (no
surprise).<br>
> In a
dynamic music
renderer,
where you can
switch parts
on/off this is
key
information.<br>
><br>
> How
should it be
done? Am I
missing
something?<br>
><br>
> Thanks in
advance!<br>
> Hans
Vereyken<br>
</div>
</div>
>
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