<div dir="ltr">Hi Perry,<div><br></div><div>Yes, this is what I had in mind. Even if turning this into bezier points is not trivial, it would still be useful in some cases. Especially since, as Don pointed out, there are other ways to generate curves.</div><div><br></div><div>Laurent</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 1:07 AM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu" target="_blank">pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">I can’t be certain, but I think the attached (really, REALLY crude) illustration depicts what Laurent was getting at. Forgive me if I’ve gotten it wrong.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">The “crest” or “trough” of each undulation of the curve is specified by 2 values: the point along an imaginary line connecting the end points of the curve to which the crest is
perpendicular and the “height/depth” of the crest/trough. The distance from the imaginary line to the crest/trough of the curve is expressed in units allowed by data.MEASUREMENT (cm|mm|in|pt|pc|vu) with ‘vu’ being the default. Negative values indicate curvature
to the right of the imaginary line (a trough), positive values to the left (a crest). The point along the imaginary line where the crest/trough occurs is expressed as a percentage of the length of the line.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">In the first slur, the trough occurs at a point that is 25% of the distance between the line’s end points with a “depth” of -2. The crest occurs at 85% of the length of the line
with a “height” of 2.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">In the second slur, the troughs and crests occur at 15%, 45%, 75%, and 90% with heights and depths of -2, 2, -3, 2.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">I haven’t yet worked out the data model for a <slur> that behaves this way, but I believe mimicking the one I presented yesterday using Bezier curves is the right direction.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">My question at this point is, Is this a species of Bezier curve that could be accommodated using the <bezier> element introduced yesterday?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">For example --<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><!ELEMENT slur (bezier*)><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><!ELEMENT bezier (bp+)><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><!ELEMENT bp EMPTY><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><!ATTLIST bp
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> rise decimal REQUIRED<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> run decimal REQUIRED><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">where @rise = height/depth of the crest/trough and @run = distance along the imaginary line. What isn’t addressed here yet is the specification of the end points of the curve.
Perhaps @anchor1 and @anchor2 or @startid and @endid?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">You may ask why is this needed. As I’ve said before, Bezier curves are fine if you’re working in a GUI environment, but if not then this provides a convenient way of specifying
the curve that can be accomplished in a text editor.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">--<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">p.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Laurent Pugin [mailto:<a href="mailto:lxpugin@gmail.com" target="_blank">lxpugin@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 03, 2015 10:06 AM<span class=""><br>
<b>To:</b> Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h)<br>
</span><b>Cc:</b> Music Encoding Initiative</span></p><div><div class="h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [MEI-L] slur and @curvedir<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Perry,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">One option I think could be interesting to add for providing more flexibility is the possibility to specify the bezier points with a percentage for the horizontal position of the intermediate points (0 to 100) and vertical units (as in
@bulge) for vertical positions. This would be much easier to draw on a black-board. I'll try to prepare a couple of example images.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Laurent<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">PS For some reason, I have not received the messages from Axel and Raffaele. Is anything wrong with my subscription to the list?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 3:50 PM, Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) <<a href="mailto:pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu" target="_blank">pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Hi Raffaele,</span><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Using @bezier only "locks" the rendering if the control points are specified as absolute page coordinates. If they're given as offsets from something else, such as a particular note, then the rendition of the
slur is dependent on the position of that thing.</span><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:black">This is how I envision it working. It's possible that moving the bezier control points (even if they're moved relative to everything else) will change the shape of the curve. If that's true,
then our only mechanism for controlling a slur is through the use of @bulge. For automatic layout without any user intervention, the only mechanism is @curvedir -- remembering that values in @curvedir cannot possibly result in a perfect rendition every time.
It seems there truly is no way to have the cake and eat it too, hence the comment which began my initial response to Benni.</span><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:black">Of course, only those with more knowledge and experience with this stuff can say for sure. </span><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;color:black">Laurent? Craig? Zoltan? Want to join in?</span><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">--</span><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">p.</span><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><br>
__________________________<br>
Perry Roland<br>
Music Library<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">University of Virginia<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">P. O. Box 400175<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Charlottesville, VA 22904<br>
<a href="tel:434-982-2702" target="_blank">434-982-2702</a> (w)<br>
pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="color:black">
<hr size="3" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> mei-l [<a href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de" target="_blank">mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>]
on behalf of Raffaele Viglianti [<a href="mailto:raffaeleviglianti@gmail.com" target="_blank">raffaeleviglianti@gmail.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 03, 2015 9:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Music Encoding Initiative<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [MEI-L] slur and @curvedir</span><span style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:black">Hi all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:black">I find Perry's explanation really helpful and interesting, particularly concerning the the sharing of responsibilities between the encoder and the renderer. Encoding @bezier before
rendering locks the encoding into only one possible rendering, which is not great for the reflowing that a truly dynamic score should allow. Unless the aim of the encoder is to represent/document the curvature of one specific written source, which is a totally
legitimate approach (and might be what Benni is after?).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:black">Having two slurs and joining them, instead, seems conceptually wrong to me: there is only one slur and no real XML overlapping (or other limitation) that would justify, arguably, splitting
the element in two.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">Raff<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black">On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 5:27 AM, Axel Teich Geertinger <<a href="mailto:atge@kb.dk" target="_blank">atge@kb.dk</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Hi Perry</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Thanks for your elaborate reply. As always I wasn’t aware of any worms involved, but I did realize that
there is no single or easy answer :-)</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Drawing a complex slur that not only avoids collisions with other objects but is also aesthetically satisfying
can be quite a challenge. My deepest respect for people working on rendering slurs!
</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">As you say, it almost always requires visual control and corrections to get it right. But recording the
corrections also means that they will have to be encodable somehow, that is, in more detail than possible with @bezier, for instance. I have no immediate ideas about how to solve this in a medium as fluid as music notation.
</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Best,</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Axel</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">
<b><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Fra:</span></b><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> mei-l [mailto:<a href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de" target="_blank">mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>]
<b>På vegne af </b>Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h)<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 2. februar 2015 20:14</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><br>
<b>Til:</b> Music Encoding Initiative<br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: [MEI-L] slur and @curvedir<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">
<span lang="DA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">
<span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Hi Axel,</span><span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">
</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">
<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">
<span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">One comment before I answer your questions -- This is a huge can of worms for which it seems there can never be a single, universally satisfying answer.</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">
<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">
<span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">@curvedir only provides minimal information about the slur so a renderer must "figure out" the rest. This is the easiest method for the encoder, but requires a
lot more intelligence on the part of the rendering engine, for example with regard to collision avoidance. From another angle, however, it provides the greatest amount of flexibility for the renderer to arrive at the final shape of the slur. Like I said before,
aside from providing a more detailed classification purpose, allowing curvdir="above below above below (and so on)" doesn't really provide much rendering help because, just as you've observed, it says nothing about the location of the points where the slur
is supposed to bend back on itself.</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">
<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">
<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">@bulge attempts to provide this missing information by indicating distance from an imaginary line between the end points of the slur. Providing two values means the distance between
the end points should be halved and a curve drawn that passes through the starting point, the point indicated by the 1st value in @bulge, the mid-point of the line, the point indicated by the 2nd value, and the ending point. Three values would mean dividing
the distance between the end points by thirds, etc. </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">
<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">
<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">"Simple" slurs (i.e., ones that don't alternate sides of the imaginary line) can be drawn with @bulge by supplying only a single value or by giving only positive or only negative
values. Doing this, instead of using @curvedir, places the shape of the slur in the control of the encoder instead of the rendering engine, but puts the burden of "scribing" the shape on the encoder. The ability to draw "simple" slurs is why @bulge can't
be constrained to alternating positive and negative values. </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">
<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">
<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">The example provided in the Guidelines should use the values -2 and 1. The diagram is also misleading in that the lines connecting the curve with the imaginary line should divide
their respective sections of the curve into equal parts; that is, the line illustrating point 1 should be drawn at the "highest" point of the curve, mid-way between the mid-point of the imaginary line and the end point of the slur.</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">
<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">
<span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">@bezier provides the most encoder control over the rendition of the slur. But unless the control points of the curve are expressed as offsets from some musical
feature (like a note, for instance), then re-flowing the notation will "disconnect" the slur from it and the slur will end up in the wrong place on the page. So, the bezier control points have to be *offsets* from something, presumably from the features pointed
at by the @startid and @endid attributes, as long as the notation is expected to be "edit-able". </span><span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">The @startid, @endid, @bezier combination will move the slur with the notation.
The problem with bezier control points is the same as with @bulge values -- it's nearly impossible for one to create them without the aid of some kind of drawing environment or iterative "code/view/code" workflow.</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">
<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">
<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Without a doubt, a better explanation of this stuff is desperately needed the Guidelines. But, there may also be better ways of recording the information necessary for drawing slurs
than what is provided by the current set of attributes. I welcome contributions on either front.</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">--</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">p.</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">__________________________<br>
Perry Roland<br>
Music Library</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">University of Virginia</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">P. O. Box 400175</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Charlottesville, VA 22904<br>
<a href="tel:434-982-2702" target="_blank">434-982-2702</a> (w)<br>
pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<b><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> mei-l [<a href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de" target="_blank">mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>]
on behalf of Axel Teich Geertinger [<a href="mailto:atge@kb.dk" target="_blank">atge@kb.dk</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 02, 2015 3:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Music Encoding Initiative<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [MEI-L] slur and @curvedir</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Hi all</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Just out of curiosity: None of the solutions I have seen (@bulge, @bezier, or @curvedir=”above below”) do indicate explicitly where the slur changes position from above the notes to
below – that is, where the slur intersects the melodic line, so to speak. I guess that the use of @bezier will give the desired result in most situations, but as the actual rendering of the slur must be dependent to some degree on other factors such as the
note spacing or system breaks, I wonder how we can be sure that it will always cross the melodic line at the desired place. With @bulge or @curvedir (with extended values as suggested by Zoltan) this must be even more uncertain, right? In principle, a rendering
algorithm may draw the slur in Benni’s example above the first three groups of notes and below only the last group when using @bulge or @curvedir. How do we avoid that?</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">One more question about @bulge, again just out of curiosity: Should it be defined that a sequence of values for @bulge must an alternating sequence of positive and negative values,
either in the guidelines or the schema? Or would a sequence like the one in the guidelines example (@bulge=”2 1”) make any sense in any situation?</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Best,</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Axel</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<b><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Fra:</span></b><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> mei-l [<a href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de" target="_blank">mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>]
<b>På vegne af </b>Komíves Zoltán<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 2. februar 2015 07:08<br>
<b>Til:</b> Music Encoding Initiative<br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: [MEI-L] slur and @curvedir</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black">Hi Perry, <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black">I think extending the data type of @curvedir attribute could be justified simply base on the argument of classification: @curvdir provides a classification mechanism, but this classification is rather incomplete, the current
values of @curvedir do not cover all the cases that are out there (see Benni's example: nor "above" neither "below" is appropriate, and the omission of the attribute surely cannot imply what we want to convey, that is the curve goes also above and below).
This has nothing to do with rendering, since in order to render a slur or phrase mark, the actual curve needs to be calculated anyway, even when "above" or "below" is applied.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black">Out of Benni's suggestions I quite like "above-below" / "below-above". (Note that his question concerns @curvedir not @place.) In fact, it occurs to me, we could even allow an alternating sequence of the values "below" and
"above". Benni's example would be encoded as <slur curvedir="above below"/>. This, beside conveying the fact that the curve goes first below, then above, could also be applied to curves with multiple inflection points. I have no literary example for this at
hand, but wouldn't be surprised if there was some in existence.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black">Best<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black">Zoltan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black">2015-02-01 17:04 GMT+00:00 Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) <<a href="mailto:pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu" target="_blank">pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu</a>>:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Laurent is correct, the values in the example should be -2 and 1.
</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">The place attribute is for describing the placement of an entity in general terms. For phrase marks and slurs, it also generically describes the curvature of the mark, and therefore
functions as short hand for a more detailed description given by the bulge or bezier attributes. It would be possible to add a value to @place for slurs/phrases with multiple inflection points, such as "mixed" or perhaps "complex", but this would only fulfill
a classification purpose -- it wouldn't provide any information regarding how to draw the slur/phrase. So, one would still need to use @bulge or @bezier for rendering.</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Another complicating factor is that @place is used by a number of elements other than slur and phrase. Adding "mixed" directly to @place would introduce the possibility of nonsense
in the case of, say, <accid> or <breath>. Of course, a specialized form of @place for slur/phrase is a possibility, but would need careful handling.</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">--</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">p.</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><br>
__________________________<br>
Perry Roland<br>
Music Library</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">University of Virginia</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">P. O. Box 400175</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Charlottesville, VA 22904<br>
<a href="tel:434-982-2702" target="_blank">434-982-2702</a> (w)<br>
pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<b><span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span lang="DA" style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> mei-l [<a href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de" target="_blank">mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>]
on behalf of Laurent Pugin [<a href="mailto:laurent@music.mcgill.ca" target="_blank">laurent@music.mcgill.ca</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 01, 2015 8:27 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Music Encoding Initiative<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [MEI-L] slur and @curvedir</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black">Hi Benni, <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black">Have you looked at @bulge? There is an example in the guidelines: <a href="http://music-encoding.org/documentation/guidelines2013/userSymbols#index.xml-body.1_div.23_div.3_div.4" target="_blank">http://music-encoding.org/documentation/guidelines2013/userSymbols#index.xml-body.1_div.23_div.3_div.4</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black">I would have expected the values to be -2 1 for the given example, so I am not sure I understand it correctly.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black">Laurent<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black">On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Benjamin Wolff Bohl <<a href="mailto:bohl@edirom.de" target="_blank">bohl@edirom.de</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333">Dear MEI-L,</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Freschütz has a question concerning encoding mixed direction slurs.</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333"> </span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:130.4pt;line-height:16.5pt;margin-top:0px!important">
<span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333"><a href="https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/2430401/5976008/319371e8-a889-11e4-9a4c-7fe5cc246dfe.png" target="_blank"><span style="color:#4183c4;text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="304" height="103" src="cid:image001.png@01D047B5.92D96DC0" alt="bildschirmfoto 2015-01-30 um 14 05 39"></span></a></span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black">I</span><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">n case the picture doesn't come through, please see: <a href="https://github.com/Freischuetz-Digital/proofMEIdata/issues/25" target="_blank">https://github.com/Freischuetz-Digital/proofMEIdata/issues/25</a></span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333">This slur may not be properly encoded in MEI using @curvedir that only allows 'above' or 'below' as values. Nevertheless, using <a href="https://github.com/bezier" target="_blank"><b><span style="color:#333333;text-decoration:none">@bezier</span></b></a> is
much more verbose than needed…</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:130.4pt;line-height:16.5pt">
<span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333">Maybe a value like 'mixed' / 'above-below' / 'below-above' / 'changing' / 'alternating' would be applicable? Of course the schema would have to be modified to allow
this. Are there any comparable values in other parts of the schema?</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333">This is no "special", rather quite often in printed music from the 19th century.</span><span lang="DA" style="color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black">All the best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black">Benjamin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
mei-l mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de" target="_blank">mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l" target="_blank">https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<span lang="DA" style="color:black"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
mei-l mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de" target="_blank">mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l" target="_blank">https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:130.4pt">
<span lang="DA" style="color:black"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:black"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
mei-l mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de" target="_blank">mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l" target="_blank">https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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