Hi there, <div><br></div><div>the example given by Benni is indeed a typical situation and I can imagine some more complex. What if this example would be repeated with an uninterrupted slur. Would that one be "above-below-above-below"? </div><div>As I see it, there are simply two slurs connected. So perhaps it could be coded in two <slur> elements with appropriate @tstamp and @dur and maybe an additional @rend="connected" or something on the second one. </div><div><br></div><div>Klaus</div><div><br><br>Am Mo, 2. Feb, 2015 um 9:29 schrieb Axel Teich Geertinger <atge@kb.dk>:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Hi all<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Just out of curiosity: None of the solutions I have seen (@bulge, @bezier, or @curvedir=”above below”) do indicate explicitly where the slur changes
position from above the notes to below – that is, where the slur intersects the melodic line, so to speak. I guess that the use of @bezier will give the desired result in most situations, but as the actual rendering of the slur must be dependent to some degree
on other factors such as the note spacing or system breaks, I wonder how we can be sure that it will always cross the melodic line at the desired place. With @bulge or @curvedir (with extended values as suggested by Zoltan) this must be even more uncertain,
right? In principle, a rendering algorithm may draw the slur in Benni’s example above the first three groups of notes and below only the last group when using @bulge or @curvedir. How do we avoid that?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">One more question about @bulge, again just out of curiosity: Should it be defined that a sequence of values for @bulge must an alternating sequence
of positive and negative values, either in the guidelines or the schema? Or would a sequence like the one in the guidelines example (@bulge=”2 1”) make any sense in any situation?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Axel<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Fra:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> mei-l [mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de]
<b>På vegne af </b>Komíves Zoltán<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 2. februar 2015 07:08<br>
<b>Til:</b> Music Encoding Initiative<br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: [MEI-L] slur and @curvedir<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">Hi Perry, <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">I think extending the data type of @curvedir attribute could be justified simply base on the argument of classification: @curvdir provides a classification mechanism, but this classification is rather incomplete,
the current values of @curvedir do not cover all the cases that are out there (see Benni's example: nor "above" neither "below" is appropriate, and the omission of the attribute surely cannot imply what we want to convey, that is the curve goes also above
and below). This has nothing to do with rendering, since in order to render a slur or phrase mark, the actual curve needs to be calculated anyway, even when "above" or "below" is applied.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">Out of Benni's suggestions I quite like "above-below" / "below-above". (Note that his question concerns @curvedir not @place.) In fact, it occurs to me, we could even allow an alternating sequence of the values
"below" and "above". Benni's example would be encoded as <slur curvedir="above below"/>. This, beside conveying the fact that the curve goes first below, then above, could also be applied to curves with multiple inflection points. I have no literary example
for this at hand, but wouldn't be surprised if there was some in existence.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">Best<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">Zoltan<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt">2015-02-01 17:04 GMT+00:00 Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) <<a href="mailto:pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu" target="_blank">pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Laurent is correct, the values in the example should be -2 and 1.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">The place attribute is for describing the placement of an entity in general terms. For phrase marks and slurs, it also generically describes
the curvature of the mark, and therefore functions as short hand for a more detailed description given by the bulge or bezier attributes. It would be possible to add a value to @place for slurs/phrases with multiple inflection points, such as "mixed" or perhaps
"complex", but this would only fulfill a classification purpose -- it wouldn't provide any information regarding how to draw the slur/phrase. So, one would still need to use @bulge or @bezier for rendering.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Another complicating factor is that @place is used by a number of elements other than slur and phrase. Adding "mixed" directly to @place would
introduce the possibility of nonsense in the case of, say, <accid> or <breath>. Of course, a specialized form of @place for slur/phrase is a possibility, but would need careful handling.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">p.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><br>
__________________________<br>
Perry Roland<br>
Music Library<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">University of Virginia<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">P. O. Box 400175<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Charlottesville, VA 22904<br>
<a href="tel:434-982-2702" target="_blank">434-982-2702</a> (w)<br>
pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"> mei-l [<a href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de" target="_blank">mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>]
on behalf of Laurent Pugin [<a href="mailto:laurent@music.mcgill.ca" target="_blank">laurent@music.mcgill.ca</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 01, 2015 8:27 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Music Encoding Initiative<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [MEI-L] slur and @curvedir</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="color:black">Hi Benni,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="color:black">Have you looked at @bulge? There is an example in the guidelines: <a href="http://music-encoding.org/documentation/guidelines2013/userSymbols#index.xml-body.1_div.23_div.3_div.4" target="_blank">http://music-encoding.org/documentation/guidelines2013/userSymbols#index.xml-body.1_div.23_div.3_div.4</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="color:black">I would have expected the values to be -2 1 for the given example, so I am not sure I understand it correctly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="color:black">Laurent<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="color:black">On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Benjamin Wolff Bohl <<a href="mailto:bohl@edirom.de" target="_blank">bohl@edirom.de</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333">Dear MEI-L,</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">Freschütz has a question concerning encoding mixed direction slurs.</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:65.2pt;line-height:16.5pt;margin-top:0px!important">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333"><a href="https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/2430401/5976008/319371e8-a889-11e4-9a4c-7fe5cc246dfe.png" target="_blank"><span style="color:#4183C4;text-decoration:none"><img border="0" width="304" height="103" id="_x0000_i1026" src="cid:image001.png@01D03EC8.6397F9F0" alt="bildschirmfoto 2015-01-30 um 14 05 39"></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="color:black">I</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:black">n case the picture doesn't come through, please see: <a href="https://github.com/Freischuetz-Digital/proofMEIdata/issues/25" target="_blank">https://github.com/Freischuetz-Digital/proofMEIdata/issues/25</a></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333">This slur may not be properly encoded in MEI using @curvedir that only allows 'above' or 'below' as values. Nevertheless, using <a href="https://github.com/bezier" target="_blank"><b><span style="color:#333333;text-decoration:none">@bezier</span></b></a> is
much more verbose than needed…</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:65.2pt;line-height:16.5pt">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333">Maybe a value like 'mixed' / 'above-below' / 'below-above' / 'changing' / 'alternating' would be applicable? Of course the schema would have to be modified to allow this. Are
there any comparable values in other parts of the schema?</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style="mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:65.2pt;line-height:16.5pt">
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333">This is no "special", rather quite often in printed music from the 19th century.</span><span style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:#333333"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="color:black">All the best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:65.2pt"><span style="color:black">Benjamin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<span style="color:black"><br>
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<br>
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