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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Perry,<br>
I try to include a few comments - for more details we have to look
again in Kristina's work/sources/items-files... <br>
Best greetings,<br>
Joachim<br>
<br>
Am 03.04.14 15:26, schrieb Johannes Kepper:<br>
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Am 03.04.2014 um 15:10 schrieb Roland, Perry D. (pdr4h) <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu"><pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu></a>:
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<pre wrap="">Johannes,
Sorry for arriving late to the party. :-)
The <history> element wasn't provided in source (manifestation) and item in order to encourage the use of work/history or expression/history. The assumption was that what folks often have to say about a manifestation or item is really about the work and expression anyway.
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Sometimes you have a copy, and you would like to tell the story behind it – why it has been copied, under which conditions it happened, etc. Basically, I want to get hold of <creation> for source (and maybe item, even though I think this might be less important). Of course, people may confuse the histories of works and sources, but this doesn't explain why there shouldn't be a source history in MEI…</pre>
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Example: We have the Vienna copy of the Freischuetz - with a lot of
contemporary and later changes, and we have the "history" of the
production of the copy itself as well as a lot of informations about
the later changes in Vienna. It's a kind of "history" for this
special item (not really for the work!). So (in an ideal world...<span
class="moz-smiley-s3"><span> ;-) </span></span>) we want to
describe this "history" with the use of, e.g., paragraphs, lists,
dates, normative data etc. etc. In order to have flexible
possibilities the notesStmt/annot element is too restrictive - but
maybe you will suggest: please write a separate book .... <span
class="moz-smiley-s2"><span> :-( </span></span> <br>
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A notesStmt/annot element (perhaps with a label of "history" in this case) can be used as a "catch all" to capture any information not easily shoe-horned into the other available elements in work, expression, source, and item. But, since the models of source and item are essentially lists of optional children, it's also not difficult to add <history> in all these places without creating any backwards compatibility problems. Before doing so, however, I'd like to know more about what you'd like to say about source and/or item history that makes this necessary.
I'm not in favor of moving <provenance> inside <history> because doing this would mean breaking compatibility. It would also make provenance available inside work, expression, and source (e.g., work/history/provenance) where its presence could lead to abuse. What exactly is the provenance (that is, the custodial history) of a work or expression? I don't there is such a thing.
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Well, I see your point, and I agree with that. There is certainly no provenance of a work or expression. The kind of information someone would be looking for is about the transmission of the work, which should go into history. However, I still think that <history> might be a better parent for <provenance> than <physDesc>. We agree that the provenance of an item is not part of the physical description, do we? I'm not saying we must move it to history, but I wonder if we could, possibly with additional means to prevent it from showing up on work and expression…
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"Provenance" has a clear meaning, I think, and naturally has nothing
to do with work (or expression) but only with item (or a special
source). If <physLoc> denotes today's place for an item this
is clearer in my eyes than only mentioning this within
<physDesc>. But <provenance> often has clear connections
with <physDesc> because stamps and librarian's or auctioneer's
entries are often mentioned in this context. But this is always the
history of "handing down" of the item/source not the history of what
"happened" to the item/manuscript while laying on Perry's desk for
some years...<span class="moz-smiley-s3"><span> ;-) </span></span>
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I don't understand what problem you're having with <bibl> inside <source>. Are you looking to provide bibliographic citations for whatever arguments you present in <history>? I need more information, please.
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I have no problem with bibl inside source, except that it isn't allowed. I'd like to be able to put in literature about a specific source (like a review of a printed edition etc.), that's it. The current means to get a bibl into source seem to be too complicated…
Hth,
Johannes
Ceterum censeo, don't forget to discuss the MEI organization, either here on MEI-L or at <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://bit.ly/1hDyq4X">http://bit.ly/1hDyq4X</a>.
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--
p.
__________________________
Perry Roland
Music Library
University of Virginia
P. O. Box 400175
Charlottesville, VA 22904
434-982-2702 (w)
pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu
________________________________________
From: mei-l [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mei-l-bounces+pdr4h=virginia.edu@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mei-l-bounces+pdr4h=virginia.edu@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>] on behalf of Johannes Kepper [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:kepper@edirom.de">kepper@edirom.de</a>]
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 5:16 AM
To: Music Encoding Initiative
Subject: Re: [MEI-L] history of sources / items
I was hoping to get a reply from Perry, especially since I think this dates back to the days before FRBR, when there were work and source elements. expression and item just inherited their standard models with little modifications, so I'm not surprised about their behavior.
However, I also prefer to add a history element to source and item, and moving provenance in there seems like a logical modification then. I wouldn't worry too much about backward compatibility. I think we're past the point where we'd have to make huge changes to the model, and little modifications should require only little modifications in software. Also, providing a XSLT to go back and forth between MEI2013 and MEI201x is not an issue, so that people could use whatever is most appropriate to them. This might result in putting the history somewhere nested into a notesStmt when going back to 2013, but so be it…
I remember discussions about structured vs. prose-based content models for a number of elements, among them bibl and annot. Does this relate to the initial question, and should we revise it as well?
Johannes
Ceterum censeo, don't forget to discuss the MEI organization, either here on MEI-L or at <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://bit.ly/1hDyq4X">http://bit.ly/1hDyq4X</a>.
Am 03.04.2014 um 02:50 schrieb Eleanor Selfridge-Field <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:esfield@stanford.edu"><esfield@stanford.edu></a>:
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<pre wrap="">"Provenance" is a standard item in catalogues of works in manuscript, but
it has a range of meanings, all of which might comfortable fit within
"history". It sometimes identifies previously owners but equally often it
refers to a physical location (city, institution, performing group et
al.).
Eleanor
Eleanor Selfridge-Field
Consulting Professor, Music (and, by courtesy, Symbolic Systems)
Braun Music Center #129
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-3076, USA
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.stanford.edu/~esfield/">http://www.stanford.edu/~esfield/</a> +1/ 650 725-9242
-----Original Message-----
From: mei-l [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>] On Behalf Of
Johannes Kepper
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 2:39 AM
To: Music Encoding Initiative
Subject: [MEI-L] history of sources / items
Dear list,
while discussing the upcoming Weber Werkverzeichnis (Weber's work
catalogue) with Kristina Richts and Joachim Veit, I can't remember why we
dropped the <history> element from sources and items? We have it on works
and expressions, but not on these two. However, it might be interested to
write something about the creation of a source (which is not the same as
the provenance, which is available). Can someone please remind me of our
argument to drop it? Otherwise, it would be a fault that we might want to
correct.
Btw., <bibl> seems to be equally hidden (you can get it from source at
source/physDesc/physMedium/bibl.).
Best,
Johannes
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