<div dir="ltr">You can find the original post in the archives:<br><br><a href="https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/pipermail/mei-l/2013/000840.html">https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/pipermail/mei-l/2013/000840.html</a><br></div><div class="gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2013/4/14 Byrd, Donald A. <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:donbyrd@indiana.edu" target="_blank">donbyrd@indiana.edu</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Whew; I'll try to catch up this flurry of activity before it's too late :-) .<br>
<br>
First, I agree almost 100% with Perry's analysis of the Chopin example, that it's really a (separate) grace note superimposed on the normal note; in fact, I was thinking of saying that, but I'm glad I didn't so it's clear arrived at the same conclusion independently. I seem to have deleted Maja's original message plus the Mozart example she attached; Johannes or Perry, would you mind resending it? -- but I'm sure Perry is correct about it too. This notational unicorn might exist; I'll keep my eyes peeled for it, but it's clearly SO rare, I don't think it's worth worry about.<br>
<br>
And Frank Litterscheid's example is an interesting one! But small notes that clearlyt aren't grace notes in the normal sense aren't that unusual, especially in Chopin :-) . Attached is the latest version of my "More Counterexamples in Conventional Music Notation"; section 3a lists about ten examples.<br>
<br>
--DAB<div class="im"><br>
<br>
<br>
On Sun, 14 Apr 2013 14:45:54 +0200, Johannes Kepper <<a href="mailto:kepper@edirom.de" target="_blank">kepper@edirom.de</a>> wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im">
Hi Frank,<br>
<br>
there is an attribute @size on <note/>, which can be used<br>
independently from the @grace attribute. In other words, you don't<br></div>
have to call a note a grace if all you want is to change the size...<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
Interesting example, though ;-)<br>
<br>
Schönen Sonntag,<br>
Johannes<br>
<br>
Am 14.04.2013 um 14:31 schrieb <<a href="mailto:litterscheid@notensatz.biz" target="_blank">litterscheid@notensatz.biz</a>>:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Because I have no idea how the size of a note is coded in MEI, I<br>
want t ask a question.<br>
In the attached file there is a small note (in this edition<br>
editorial addings are engraved as small notes) which HAS to be<br>
connected the the *normal* beam. I would no call that small note a<br>
grace note, but if the term *grace note* is the only way of encoding<br>
small notes, it would be good to be able to connect them to *normal*<br>
beams.<br>
<br>
Only a thought of an unknowing engraver J<br>
Frank<br>
<br>
---<br>
NOTENSATZ LITTERSCHEID<br>
Frank Litterscheid<br>
Am Kuhkamp 7<br>
37619 Hehlen<br>
Tel <a href="tel:05533%20-%20979733" value="+495533979733" target="_blank">05533 - 979733</a><br>
Fax <a href="tel:05533%20-%20979732" value="+495533979732" target="_blank">05533 - 979732</a><br>
<a href="mailto:litterscheid@notensatz.biz" target="_blank">litterscheid@notensatz.biz</a><br>
<br>
Von: <a href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de" target="_blank">mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-<u></u>paderborn.de</a><br>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de" target="_blank">mei-l-bounces@lists.<u></u>uni-paderborn.de</a>] Im Auftrag von TW<br>
Gesendet: Sonntag, 14. April 2013 12:52<br>
An: Music Encoding Initiative<br>
Betreff: Re: [MEI-L] graceful beams<br>
<br>
So, to what conclusion do we come? I think MEI doesn't lack any<br>
features here, it should just be made clear at a more prominent<br>
place in the specification/documented that grace notes will<br>
graphically not be part of a beam, even if they occur within the<br>
<beam> element. If you *really* want grace notes to be part of the<br>
regular beam, you can still achieve this using existing means.<br>
<br>
Is this a valid summary of the discussion?<br>
Thomas<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
2013/4/14 Roland, Perry (pdr4h) <<a href="mailto:pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu" target="_blank">pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu</a>><br>
Hi Don,<br>
<br>
Thanks for joining the discussion.<br>
<br>
I should've been wary of using the word "never". That's a dangerous<br>
word when it comes to music notation. (Note to self: Always avoid<br>
the words "always" and "never". Never use them.) Chopin's notation<br>
is usually pretty "slippery", so I'm not surprised you found<br>
evidence there to trip up the unsuspecting.<br>
<br>
However, in both the Mozart and Chopin examples, the notes in<br>
question are clearly not part of the beamed group of "principal"<br>
notes. Stem direction is the best evidence. The different stem<br>
directions leading to the beams attached to the A# in the<br>
penultimate measure of the Chopin clearly indicate that there are<br>
two "layers/parts/streams/voices" here. There isn't just one A#,<br>
but two which occupy the same visual space. The big A# just obscures<br>
the little one. The grace note A# belongs to the upper layer while<br>
the regular note A# goes with the lower one. The same thing occurs<br>
on the B natural in the last measure.<br>
<br>
Now that the part writing has been disentangled, what is most<br>
interesting is the *meaning* of this particular vertical alignment,<br>
the collision really, of a "principal" note and a "grace" note.<br>
What is Frederic trying to say? I believe he's indicating that the<br>
grace note arpeggio begins *with* the A#, not *after* it (this<br>
comports with Gould) and that the performer shouldn't rush getting<br>
to the A# at the top of the arpeggio. (By the way, I believe the<br>
sonic effect would've been the same if he'd simply written a wavy<br>
line in front of A#-C#-F#-A# in the right hand, just like what's in<br>
the left hand. But he made his choice and we have to live with it.)<br>
<br>
<br>
There's an instance in the 3rd measure of the Chopin example that's<br>
more closely analogous to the situation in the Mozart that started<br>
the discussion: the grace notes between beat 2 and its second half<br>
(assuming this notation is counted in 2/4) lie under the beam<br>
connecting the G#-A-G# sequence, but they're not touching it. In<br>
addition, they're part of their own little beamed group. They are<br>
*logically excluded* from participating in the "big beam group" in<br>
spite of occurring between its participating notes, just like the<br>
grace notes in the Mozart example.<br>
<br>
So, I stand by my assertion that grace notes are never (um,<br>
"extremely rarely") beamed with "regular" notes, where "beamed with"<br>
means "part of the same horizontal sequence as" normal-sized notes.<br>
Granted, I haven't seen the entire universe of music notation, but<br>
mixed grace- and normal-note beams are like unicorns -- I've heard<br>
talk of them, but as yet I haven't seen one. :-)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote>
<br>
<br>
--<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
Donald Byrd<br>
Woodrow Wilson Indiana Teaching Fellow<br>
Adjunct Associate Professor of Informatics<br>
Visiting Scientist, Research Technologies<br>
Indiana University Bloomington<br>
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