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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Axel et al.,<br>
first tanks for correctiong my repeationg mistake concerning the
items, which certainly did not increase clarity.<br>
My head has continued working on the problematic dealing of FRBR
with recordings and I tried to graphically sort out my thougts (as
you can see in the attached image or [in case it doesn't go
through] under <a
href="http://homepages.uni-paderborn.de/bwbohl/MEI/Bohl_FRBR.jpg">http://homepages.uni-paderborn.de/bwbohl/MEI/Bohl_FRBR.jpg</a>).<br>
The graphic is sort of a table with work, expression,
manifestation and item being the column labels. The contents first
show a work with an edition and an auograph source, then a
performance ("Interpretation by Kepper/Roland") and a recording
(in red), and last some records (I just realize I missed putting
an experssion before the records, sorry for that). Blue lines show
hierarchical dependencies whereas green lines indicate a "based
upon" relationship.<br>
The idea behind it is, that a interpretation of a work by a
certain conductor could be viewed as expression with him
conduction a certain orchestra being a manifestation and the
actual performance one a certain data at a certain location being
the item (physical by means of the sound waves;-)<br>
A recording again is another experssion of the work although
depending on a certain interpretation-perfomance<br>
<br>
I'm not a FRBR expert so I don't know how this all conforms with
the FRBR paper(s) but I would be happy to sort things out with
you!<br>
<br>
/benjamin<br>
<br>
Am 14.11.2012 20:36, schrieb Axel Teich Geertinger:<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Hi
Benni<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">some
quick comments here and there...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="DA">Fra:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="DA"> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>] <b>På
vegne af </b>Benjamin Wolff Bohl<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 14. november 2012 19:59<br>
<b>Til:</b> Music Encoding Initiative<br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: [MEI-L] FRBR in MEI<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Hi Axel,<br>
thanks for this huge insight into the FRBR-customization.
Having considered some recording metadata in the Freischütz
project I'll try to add my thought's on this topic.<br>
Sorry for adding late to this discussion, I had prepared
this mail this morning in the train, then forgot to send it
from work...<br>
See my comments inline<br>
<br>
Am 13.11.2012 13:21, schrieb Axel Teich Geertinger:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">Hi Johannes,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">Thanks for
your comments. Good and relevant as always. I think I better
leave it to the more technically skilled people to answer
most of it, but I have just a few comments.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> ><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> >
4) There is a problem possibly emerging from the
notation-centric nature of<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> MEI, or
perhaps it is really a FRBR problem; namely the handling of
performances<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> and
recordings. FRBR treats them both as expressions, i.e. as
"siblings" to what I<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> (and
MerMEId) would regard as different versions of the work. We
encode<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">>
performances using <eventList> elements within
expression/history, i.e. as (grand-<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">>
)children of <expression>, which really makes sense to
me. A performance must<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> be of a
certain version (form, instrumentation) of the work, so I
strongly believe we<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> should
keep it this way. It's just not how FRBR sees it. On the
other hand, as far as<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> I can
see there is nothing (except the practical an conceptual
difficulties) that<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> prevents
users from encoding e performance or a recording as an
expression, so<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> FRBR
compliance is probably possible also in this respect. I just
wouldn't<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">>
recommend it, and I actually suspect FRBR having a problem
there rather than<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> MEI.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> I
haven't looked this up, but are you sure that performances
and recordings are on<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> the same
level? I would see performances as expressions, while
recordings are<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">>
manifestations. Of course a performance follows a certain
version of a work, like<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> the
piano version (=expression). But, the musician moves that to
a different<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> domain
(graphical to audio), and he may or may not play the
repeats, and he may<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> or may
not follow the dynamic indications of the score. There
certainly is a strong<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">>
relationship between both expressions, but they are distinct
to me. I see your<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> reasons
for putting everything into an eventList, and thus subsuming
it under one<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">>
expression, but that might not always be the most
appropriate model. Sometimes,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> it might
be better to use separate expressions for the piano version
and it's<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">>
performances and connect them with one or more relations.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">Sorry, my
mistake. Now that I look it up I see you are right:
performances are expressions, recordings are not. As I said,
I haven’t really been looking into the recordings question
yet. Here's an example from the FRBR report:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">w1 J. S.
Bach's Six suites for unaccompanied cello
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:.5in;text-indent:.5in">e1 performances by
Janos Starker recorded partly in 1963 and completed in 1965
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:.5in">m1 recordings
released on 33 1/3 rpm sound discs in 1966 by Mercury<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:1.5in">m2
recordings re-released on compact disc in 1991 by Mercury
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:.5in;text-indent:.5in">e2 performances by
Yo-Yo Ma recorded in 1983
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:.5in">m1 recordings
released on 33 1/3 rpm sound discs in 1983 by CBS Records
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:.5in">m2 recordings
re-released on compact disc in 1992 by CBS Records<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">So,
recordings are no problem, I guess. But that still leaves us
with two very different ways of encoding performance data.
FYI, we have recently moved performance <eventList>s
from <work> to <expression>, so we do subsume
them under a particular expression already.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif"">First, I don't think, that a
recording and a performance are really two different things,
but correct me if I'm missing something. The way to both of
them is the same, only the recording might result in further
manifestations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">That
is exactly the problem I’m having with FRBR’s view on
performances. I think of performance and recording as quite
parallel to printed and manuscript sources: a recording is a
sort of “printed performance”, i.e. one that may be
reproduced in multiple copies and re-releases. A
performance, like a manuscript, is a unique “event”, so just
like a manuscript can only have one location (1 item), the
performance manifestation also has just one item (it happens
at a certain place at a certain time and is not repeatable
until we invent time travel). And I tend to think that the
performance must represent a specific expression of the
work, but it may be more complex than that. However, to me
all this indicates that performances should be treated as
manifestations. But FRBR sees it differently. And since I
treat them as events, I may have simply evaded the
problem...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif""><br>
Let's say you have a copy of a specific recording of a work.
Interpreting your record as a expression of the work is
fine. Interpeting the recording session as expression of the
work can be rather problematic.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Well,
MY record would be an item, i.e. a specific copy of the
manifestation (the release). Right?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif""><br>
The record you own is a manifestation of the recording
(expression/?) which on the other hand will be the
trans-medialization of specific performance material, having
been worked with and modified by conductor and musicians in
order to resemble the performance (manifestation) which
again is based on a certain printed edition of the work
(expression) possibly taking into account diffrences from
other sources.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Again,
the one I actually own is an *item* of the manifestation
(just to make sure we agree on that...)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif""><br>
Would one say that this makes the record inferior and nested
deep inside the work-expression-manifestation of the written
sources or rather a sibling expression-manifestation tree of
the same work with strong relations to each other?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I
would say that the recording manifestation and the written
manifestation used for the recording would have strong
manifestation-to-manifestation relations, but that they
would not *<b>necessarily</b>* have the same parent
expression. The musicians could have changed something, made
cuts or other things not present in the performance material
they played from. So we could also have sibling expressions
here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif""><br>
I think it's the very right thing you did in moving the
performance list to <expression>.<br>
<br>
Some further complications might arise from the following
two thougts:<br>
(a)The record you may moreover be (an this is quite popular
in recent years, especially with 'classical' msuic) the
re-release of an older record (i.e. another manifestation of
the same recording) but modified in order to fit the new
medium, remastered and digitized and potentially even
remixed (Vinyls have certain physical implications on the
nature of the sound, whilst CDs or digital audio has
different ones).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">No
problem, as I see it. Like in the FRBR example above, that
would be a new manifestation of the recording expression.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif""><br>
(b) The record doesn't com alone, it has a booklet, which
could be referenced from <extent>? This booklet will
incorporate texts by different persons and again if
re-released might incorporate the old booklet and add
additional material.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Good
question. This would be a bundle of relations pointing in
all directions, perhaps. I have no good answer to that right
away...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">/axel<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif""><br>
<br>
See you later,<br>
Benjamin<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> > 5)
Finally, an issue related to the FRBR discussion, though not
directly a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">>
consequence of it: MEI 2012 allows multiple <work>
elements within <workDesc>. I<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> can't
think of any situation, however, in which it may be desirable
to describe more<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> than one
work in a single file. On the contrary, it could easily cause
a lot of<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> confusion,
so I would actually suggest allowing only one <work>
element; in other<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> words:
either skip <workDesc> and have 1 optional <work>
in <meiHead>, or keep<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">>
<workDesc>, and change its content model to be the one
used by <work> now.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> Again, I
think that this perspective is biased from your application,
where it makes<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> perfect
sense. Consider you're working on Wagner's Ring. You might
want to say<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> something
about all these works in just one file. All I want to say is
that this is a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> modeling
question, which is clearly project-specific. It seems
perfectly reasonable<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> to
restrict merMEId to MEI instances with only one work, but I
wouldn't restrict MEI<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> to one
work per file. This may result in preprocessing files before
operating on<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> them with
merMEId, but we have similar situations for many other aspects
for MEI,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">> so this
isn't bad per se.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">In the Ring
case, we are talking about the individual dramas as components
of a larger work. This would probably be one of the situations
where <componentGrp> would come in handy as a child of
<work> (which the customization allows already). I would
be reluctant, however, to include them as four <work>
elements directly under <workDesc>. To clarify what that
would mean, it would be necessary to specify work-to-work
relations. Furthermore, there wouldn’t be any place to put
metadata concerning *<b>all</b>* four works, since we would be
at top level already.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">Best, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in">Axel<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New
Roman","serif""><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in">mei-l mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin-left:.5in"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l">https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
mei-l mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mei-l@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l">https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/mailman/listinfo/mei-l</a>
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