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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Dear list<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">I just realized that the Catalog IG’s mail archive hadn’t been activated yet. It is now. Any postings to this group from now should be automatically archived at
<a href="https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/pipermail/mei-catalog-ig/">https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/pipermail/mei-catalog-ig/</a> for future reference.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Axel<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Fra:</span></b><span lang="DA" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> mei-catalog-ig [mailto:mei-catalog-ig-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de]
<b>På vegne af </b>Axel Teich Geertinger<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 2. november 2015 21:19<br>
<b>Til:</b> mei-catalog-ig@lists.uni-paderborn.de<br>
<b>Emne:</b> [mei-catalog-ig] <physLoc> and <provenance><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Dear Metadata IG<br>
<br>
As you know, a new version of the MEI schema is in preparation which will break backwards compatibility in a few instances. I think we should take the opportunity to make a recommendation regarding an issue that has been raised a few times but never resolved.
<br>
In late 2012, the content model of the MEI header was revised. Until then, both <physLoc> (holding information about the physical location of a source) and <provenance> had both been children of the source's <physDesc> (physical description). With the revision,
<physLoc> was moved out of <physDesc> to become its sibling, while <provenance> stayed within <physDesc>.<br>
Please see the discussion from December 2012 below. Since then, the FRBR module has become an optional part of the MEI schema, but that doesn't solve the problem regarding the <provenance> element's place. The issue was brought up again in early April 2014
on MEI-L. You may find it in the archives: <a href="https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/pipermail/mei-l/2014/date.html" target="_blank">
https://lists.uni-paderborn.de/pipermail/mei-l/2014/date.html</a> (look for the 'history of sources / items' discussion).<br>
<br>
My first problem with the current state is that I cannot understand the account of an item's provenance as part of its physical description. Provenance is part of an item's history, and it cannot be described from the item's physical appearance (even if, of
course, the provenance may have left a few physical trails, such as library stamps or written shelf marks).
<br>
The second problem is how to use the current model. When using MEI without the FRBR module, the <item> element is not available and therefore all item-related information must be encoded at source level. That means: if there is more than one copy of a particular
source, all the copies' physical locations and their provenance must be recorded within the same <source> element. But with <physLoc> and <provenance> separated, how can we tell which provenance corresponds to which current location (see the discussion below)?<br>
<br>
There are a number of possible solutions that I can imagine. All of them imply moving <provenance> out of <physDesc>:<br>
1. <provenance> could become a child of <physLoc>. This way, <provenance> would be regarded as supplementary information to the item's current location - or <physLoc>'s historical record, so to speak. Something like this:<br>
<physLoc><br>
<repository/><br>
<identifier/><br>
<provenance><br>
<eventList/><br>
...<br>
</provenance><br>
</physLoc><br>
<br>
2. The other way around: <physLoc> could be a child of <provenance> (which in turn would become a sibling of <physDesc>). This would make <physLoc> more like the end point of a provenance time line:<br>
<provenance><br>
<physLoc><br>
<repository/><br>
<identifier/><br>
</physLoc><br>
<eventList/><br>
...<br>
</provenance><br>
<br>
3. A new container for both could be introduced to group them as siblings (I can't think of a suitable name for such a container, though)
<br>
<br>
4. <provenance> could simply become a sibling of <physLoc> and a direct descendant of <source> (and <item>, of course, when using the FRBR module):<br>
<source><br>
...<br>
<physDesc/><br>
<physLoc><br>
<repository/><br>
<identifier/><br>
</physLoc><br>
<provenance><br>
</eventList/><br>
...<br>
</provenance><br>
...<br>
</source><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">5. All the solutions I haven't thought of...<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Any opinions? It would be nice to have consensus in this group as much as possible before making any suggestions to MEI-L and filing an issue for the next release.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Axel<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">Fra:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a> [mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de] på vegne af Roland, Perry (pdr4h) [pdr4h@eservices.virginia.edu]<br>
<b>Sendt:</b> 8. december 2012 15:25<br>
<b>Til:</b> Music Encoding Initiative<br>
<b>Emne:</b> Re: [MEI-L] physLoc</span><span style="font-size:6.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Axel,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">To describe the provenance of two copies in different locations, I would leave your example exactly as it is. Or I might even compress the two <provenance> elements into one --<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><source></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <physDesc></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <provenance>This relates to one location. This relates to the other location.</provenance></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </physDesc></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <physLoc></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <repository>some archive</repository></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </physLoc></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <physLoc></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <repository>some other archive</repository></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </physLoc></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"></source></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">The text in <provenance> explains its relationship to the items in the different locations.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">@sameas is incorrect, but I would not attempt to connect the <provenance> element to the <physLoc> elements. That's a level of detail that is not required using this "text-based" approach.
Going to the FRBR approach is a better option for that level of detail.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">In order to make the distinction between the two approaches more clear, it might be worth considering allowing only one <physLoc> in <source>. The example then would be
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><source></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <physDesc></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <provenance>This relates to one location. This relates to the other location.</provenance></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </physDesc></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <physLoc></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <repository>some archive. some other archive</repository></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </physLoc></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"></source></span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">p.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black"><br>
__________________________<br>
Perry Roland<br>
Music Library<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">University of Virginia<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">P. O. Box 400175<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS","sans-serif";color:black">Charlottesville, VA 22904<br>
434-982-2702 (w)<br>
pdr4h (at) virginia (dot) edu<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black">
<a href="mailto:mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de">mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de</a> [mei-l-bounces@lists.uni-paderborn.de] on behalf of Axel Teich Geertinger [atge@kb.dk]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 08, 2012 5:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Music Encoding Initiative<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [MEI-L] physLoc</span><span style="font-size:6.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Hi Perry,</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">to get back to the physLoc question: you wrote</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in">
<span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">does the provenance information pertain to only the copy in the first physical location or to both? If it pertains to both, then the <provenance> elemement shouldn't be a child of the first <physLoc>,
but should exist outside it. Assuming <provenance> is permitted only within <physLoc>, if I want to say that both copies have always been kept together, then information will have to be repeated. For example,<br>
<br>
<source><br>
<physDesc/><br>
<physLoc><br>
<provenance>Always together</provenance><br>
</physLoc><br>
<physLoc><br>
<provenance>Always together</provenance><br>
</physLoc><br>
</source></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">I see that this would require information to be repeated. However, I think usually the situation would rather be that items in different physical locations (typically
copies kept in different archives) would have different provenance. How would you describe that? You would have something like:</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><source></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <physDesc></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <provenance>This relates to one location</provenance></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <provenance>This relates to the other location</provenance></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </physDesc></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <physLoc></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <repository>some archive</repository></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </physLoc></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <physLoc></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> <repository>some other archive</repository></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </physLoc></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"></source></span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">With <physLoc> and <provenance> separated, you would have to use IDREFs to clarify which provenance is related to which location (or item), right? Is that better
than repeating information or using someting like @sameas in those (rare, I would say) cases, where several items in _<i>different</i>_ locations (or with different shelf marks) share the same provenance?</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Have a nice weekend,</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Axel</span><span style="color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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